83-85 550 and 750 GPZ's ignition problem

Noticed that both of these models have the same ignition pickup coils, and i was wondering if anyone has a good way to check these. Or a spare known good set.

Problem: no spark, 1984 GPZ750.

For info, I have like 11.8VC at the coils, I have checked the coils (pri at 2.5, secondary at 12 and 13K ish), changed the IC igniter w/ a known good from Steele, and checked the ignition diodes at the fusebox(good).

Right now the way that I see is: 1)pull plugs 2) ground the two of them that go to an individual coil 3) hook up switched 12VDC to the pickup/IC connector, 4) put power on and see if the plugs spark.

If that works, then the pickup coils are shot, I guess.

Am I right in thinking this. Thanks.

Louie

Post edited by: gpzrox, at: 2007/03/18 20:46

Post edited by: gpzrox, at: 2007/03/18 20:48

Test your ignitor lately?

Here's the test from my '84-> GPz550 Factory Manual:


Sorry, best scan possible.

Post edited by: CoreyClough, at: 2007/03/18 20:33

That is very cool, but I wonder if the readings would be different for my 750.

Shoot, it shouldn't be different. Let me look into that.

Post edited by: gpzrox, at: 2007/03/18 20:51

Nope, couldn't get that to work. Thanks anyway.

gpzrox wrote:

Nope, couldn't get that to work. Thanks anyway.

The igniter tested bad? Or what?

That igniter was working on the bike, but it has been several months since the bike was started.

A scope would probably be the easiest way to check the pick ups, although an analog voltmeter might work.

It would really help if Lou (loudhvx) would chime in here, I'll PM him.

buy.Kawasaki.com didn't show any gpz 750 listed for 1984. They have two listings for Ninja 750 R. But their links are messed up. I kept going in circles around the A, and had to "search" to get the E.

They are the ZX750 A, and the ZX750 E. The A is probably the air/oil cooled gpz 750, and the E is apparently the turbo version.

It really doesn't matter since since both use the electronic advance ignition. That ignition is not compatible with the mechanical advance ignitions. None of the parts are interchangeable between the systems, except possibly the coils.

The 81 through 83 gpz550 (D in 81, H in 82/83) all use the mechanical advance type system.

The e-advance system can be identified by the much larger ignitor box.

You can fit the mechanical advance system into an e-advance motor, but you can't put an e-advance system into a mech-advance motor. The ignition housing at the end of the crank is different and will not allow the fitment of the larger e-advance pickups into an older motor. So you can't update an older motor, and you can only downgrade a newer motor.

I'm not sure what is meant by "ignition diodes" in the original post.

I really have very little experience or detailed info on the e-advance systems. I have detailed info on the mech advance systems. I'll post them here.

Post edited by: loudhvx, at: 2007/03/19 12:58

1981 KZ550D1 (Gpz) ignition notes by Lou Dudzik 8/14/05:

Coils:
Primary DC resistance: 2.4 to 2.7 ohms.
Primary inductance: 6.33 mH

Module:
Kawasaki part number: 2119-1040
Fuji built
Fuji label part number: 2119-1020

Pickups:
DC resistance: 450 to 460 ohms.
inductance: 350 mH

Rotor:
It is an iron slug with an increasing-radius ramp up to a pronounced point with a decreasing-radius ramp after the point.
The increasing ramp takes about 120 deg and the decreasing ramp takes 240 deg. This iron slug is just pressed on. Flipping it over (while keeping the point at the same location) can theoretically double the dwell to 240 deg, but the signal becomes less clear and thus more unstable and false triggers result. The long-ramp has dips and bumps that cause the false signals. Also, for some reason, the dwell, in this condition, only ranges from 80 deg to a maximum of 180 ~ 220 deg instead of the theoretical 240 deg regardless of the how high the rpm is. Perhaps 10,000 rpm does not produce enough amplitude with such a gradual ramp.

Performance:
Dwell at idle: 100 deg (crankshaft)
Dwell increases to 120 deg (crankshaft) as rpm increases
With about a 1mm gap from rotor tip to pickup, the peak POSITIVE (not peak to peak) output spike is about:
.2v at 120 rpm (2Hz)
.3v at 180 rpm (3Hz)
7v at 6000 rpm (47Hz)
(Battery powered start is somewhere around 300 rpm (5hz).)
These measuments represent positive signal peak relative to ground (ie, when the negative pickup wire is grounded), NOT peak to peak. The negative spike, as measured on the positive pickup wire (with negative pickup wire grounded), has about 50% of the positive peak's amplitude.
These measurements are accurate even when hooked up to an ignitor. Any ignitor will have to have very high input impedance to prevent signal delay, thus the pickup's output voltage, under load, will remain very similar to an un-loaded pickup's output voltage.

A diagram of the pickup's output voltage is visible in the file called "GPZreluctorWave.GIF".

Due to the nature of inductive pickups, there is a small delay that increases with rpm. This delay ranges from 0 deg to about 3 deg (crankshaft) at 10,000 rpm. The effect will be seen as about a 2 to 3 degree retard on the spark at high rpm. It's not very noticeable til around 8000 or 9000 rpm. This delay appears with the stock ignitor as well as other ignitor modules that have been constructed and substituted.

---

The following ignitor-usage data was compiled by "luvmykaw" on KZrider.com.

---

The ignitor for a 1982 H3 750 LTD, part number 21119-1040 is a direct swap with:

KZ550-A2-81 Standard
KZ550-A3-82 Standard
KZ550-A4-83 Standard
KZ550-C1-80 LTD
KZ550-C2-81 LTD
KZ550-C3-82 LTD
KZ550-C4-83 LTD
KZ550-D1-81 Gpz
KZ550-F1-83 SPECTRE
KZ550-M1-83 SHAFT

KZ650-H1-81 CSR
KZ650-H2-82 CSR

KZ750-E1-80
KZ750-E2-81
KZ750-H1-80 LTD
KZ750-H2-81 LTD
KZ750-E3-82
KZ750-H3-82 LTD

KZ1000-G1-80

Igniter part number 21119-1050 will only cross between these bikes:
KZ650-H3-83 CSR
KZ750-H4-83
KZ750-L3-83
KZ750-R1-82 GPZ

E-mail me and I'll send you the full size copy of the wiring diagram pic below.
Since it seems there is no easy answer, we'll have to troubleshoot, and it will help that we are looking at the same diagram.



Post edited by: steell, at: 2007/03/19 18:06

This is a small copy of a pic containing only the ignition section.

These are for the 83 GPz750A1, but I think A2 and A3 are the same.

Post edited by: steell, at: 2007/03/19 18:15

BTW, if that bike is silver, has a blue seat, and came from Chicago, it has an 82 LTD550 ignition which is the same as an 81-83 gpz550 ignition. My friend did the downgrade to save money a few years ago.

Lets see:

First off, Steele, I am sure the igniter you have sent is good to go, so don't worry there. We are square.

Yep, the GPZ750 is referred to as an ZX750R. The E is the turbo.

After looking around, I found that the igniter pickups are part number 59026-1026 is used on the later 84-86 GPZ550's, with the electronic advance. Sorry for the confusion there.

Ignition Diodes: in the fusebox, there are diodes for the electronic ignition, and one big relay.

What you said about the "pickups" is very interesting, and where I need to be looking. On my bike, the pickups are reading zip/nada/infinity. I wasn't sure if they should read anything if they were not on the right place on the rotor -- kind of like if the pickup would only read when the cam was under it. See, my clymer talks about the mechanical advance, but not how to read the electronic advance pickups.

What you said about installing a mechanical advance on the e-machine makes me assume that the pickups should read the same, mechanical or electronic.

I think I have found my culprit. The manual has a good way to test an e-machine, everything but the pickups.

Thanks for the info. Steele, if you have any pickup setups around, then I will probably need one.

Thanks guys. Will keep updated, and Lou, if what I have deduced is way out, let me know.

I believe you should read a resistance from the red wire to the yellow wire, and black wire to the blue wire on the pickups. At least that is how it is on the mech-advance systems. They probably kept the same convention on the e-advance system, but I don't know what the resistance reading will be. So if you disconnect the red/yellow/black/blue plug from the igniter, you should read the resistance there on the wires. If the wires show infinite resistance, on the pairs I mentioned, a pickup might be bad or the wiring might be bad.