Runaway idle but sooty plugs???!
- loudhvx
- Offline
- KZr Legend
- Posts: 10864
- Thanks: 1615
Re: Runaway idle but sooty plugs???!
14 Sep 2017 11:32 - 14 Sep 2017 11:50
If it's jetted too rich, then you add choke, it will be more rich, so the RPMs will drop do to improper mixture.
If it was too lean, then adding choke will make the RPMs increase.
I am not discounting the possibility that there may be a vacuum leak. You can have a vacuum leak and still be jetted too rich at higher throttle openings. Conversely, you can be rich at idle and be jetted too lean at higher openings. The plugs only give you a weighted average of the overall jetting, but that doesn't necessarily help you diagnose a specific throttle position.
To identify jetting issues at specific throttle positions, (without a wideband o2 system) you have to do a battery of riding tests. Dynojet has a pretty good set of generic instructions for determining rich/lean.
As the others have suggested, though, other items should be checked.corrected before carb tuning. You need to get the valves sorted, and confirm good compression. Double check the ignition timing per manual, especially regarding timing advance as that can cause erratic idle if the advance comes in too soon. And, of course, vacuum leaks must be corrected or carb tuning will be a waste of time.
Since you have a mechanical carb, it should be fairly simple to get it jetted once everything else is working correctly.
I have the Dynojet instructions on my site.
s3.amazonaws.com/gpzweb/TK22mainPage/TK22jetKit/TK22jetKit.html
It is a very general description for carbs in general, so some of it won't apply in your application. It is to give you an idea of the type of tests you will need to do.
If it was too lean, then adding choke will make the RPMs increase.
I am not discounting the possibility that there may be a vacuum leak. You can have a vacuum leak and still be jetted too rich at higher throttle openings. Conversely, you can be rich at idle and be jetted too lean at higher openings. The plugs only give you a weighted average of the overall jetting, but that doesn't necessarily help you diagnose a specific throttle position.
To identify jetting issues at specific throttle positions, (without a wideband o2 system) you have to do a battery of riding tests. Dynojet has a pretty good set of generic instructions for determining rich/lean.
As the others have suggested, though, other items should be checked.corrected before carb tuning. You need to get the valves sorted, and confirm good compression. Double check the ignition timing per manual, especially regarding timing advance as that can cause erratic idle if the advance comes in too soon. And, of course, vacuum leaks must be corrected or carb tuning will be a waste of time.
Since you have a mechanical carb, it should be fairly simple to get it jetted once everything else is working correctly.
I have the Dynojet instructions on my site.
s3.amazonaws.com/gpzweb/TK22mainPage/TK22jetKit/TK22jetKit.html
It is a very general description for carbs in general, so some of it won't apply in your application. It is to give you an idea of the type of tests you will need to do.
1981 KZ550 D1 gpz.
Kz550 valve train warning.
Other links.
Kz550 valve train warning.
Other links.
Last edit: 14 Sep 2017 11:50 by loudhvx.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- harmsworthj
- Topic Author
- Offline
- User
- Posts: 23
- Thanks: 0
Re: Runaway idle but sooty plugs???!
14 Sep 2017 14:25
Is timing light the only way to really confirm good timing? I did the ohmmeter method on the ignition points.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- SWest
- Offline
- Sustaining Member
- 10 22 2014
- Posts: 23165
- Thanks: 2802
Re: Runaway idle but sooty plugs???!
14 Sep 2017 15:46
Have you posted a pic of your plugs yet?
Steve
Steve
Z1b1000 1975 Z1b
kzrider.com/forum/11-projects/598262-kz-...-will-it-live#672882
kzrider.com/forum/2-engine/597654-poser?start=240#704229
kzrider.com/forum/11-projects/598262-kz-...-will-it-live#672882
kzrider.com/forum/2-engine/597654-poser?start=240#704229
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Scirocco
- Offline
- Premium Member
- Never change a running system
- Posts: 4241
- Thanks: 2103
Re: Runaway idle but sooty plugs???!
14 Sep 2017 16:09
It looks like your carb has the wrong basic setting in the pilot and main jet settings.It is too enriched = more fuel than air
The choke circuit rises the idle to keep alive the engine but with a very rich mixture = sooty plugs
The choke circuit has a independent richer fuel/air mixture, (as a carb in a carb), to get a better cold start of the engine.
Tell us the pilot and main jet size# in the carb.
The choke circuit rises the idle to keep alive the engine but with a very rich mixture = sooty plugs
The choke circuit has a independent richer fuel/air mixture, (as a carb in a carb), to get a better cold start of the engine.
Tell us the pilot and main jet size# in the carb.
My 1975 Z 1 B 900 Project
www.kzrider.com/forum/11-projects/605133...ears-deep-sleep-mode
www.kzrider.com/forum/11-projects/605133...ears-deep-sleep-mode
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Scirocco
- Offline
- Premium Member
- Never change a running system
- Posts: 4241
- Thanks: 2103
Re: Runaway idle but sooty plugs???!
14 Sep 2017 16:29harmsworthj wrote
Is timing light the only way to really confirm good timing? I did the ohmmeter method on the ignition points.
If you have breaker point ignition you need a 0,30 - 0,40 mm gap for the correct dwell.
You have to use a feeler gauge to adjust the gap clearance, (independent of the ignition timing).
For the right timing you have to turn ignition plate until the breaker point opens on the "F" mark.
Check with a strobe light or a test lamp (ohmmeter).
My 1975 Z 1 B 900 Project
www.kzrider.com/forum/11-projects/605133...ears-deep-sleep-mode
www.kzrider.com/forum/11-projects/605133...ears-deep-sleep-mode
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- loudhvx
- Offline
- KZr Legend
- Posts: 10864
- Thanks: 1615
Re: Runaway idle but sooty plugs???!
15 Sep 2017 10:30
To verify the advance curve, yes you need a timing light and a tach.
Preliminarily, you could at least confirm the advance springs are both in tact and not stretched. Also make sure the advanced moves freely and returns fully.
Preliminarily, you could at least confirm the advance springs are both in tact and not stretched. Also make sure the advanced moves freely and returns fully.
1981 KZ550 D1 gpz.
Kz550 valve train warning.
Other links.
Kz550 valve train warning.
Other links.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- harmsworthj
- Topic Author
- Offline
- User
- Posts: 23
- Thanks: 0
Re: Runaway idle but sooty plugs???!
15 Sep 2017 15:27
Here's the latest: My jets have been 200 main 25 pilot. I knew 200 was too big but I figured I would get to that when it could actually hold an idle (wrong?). Today I threw in a 140 main and it seemed to do better at idle (I think). Here is plug after running for a while (very unscientifically) with the 200 and the after with the 140. Seems better right?
STILL have racing idle that will drop down to a chunky, uneven idle when I crack the throttle, but if I give it gas gradually and release, rpms hang or even climb until I blip it again.
Triple checked float height, its fine.
STILL have racing idle that will drop down to a chunky, uneven idle when I crack the throttle, but if I give it gas gradually and release, rpms hang or even climb until I blip it again.
Triple checked float height, its fine.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- harmsworthj
- Topic Author
- Offline
- User
- Posts: 23
- Thanks: 0
Re: Runaway idle but sooty plugs???!
15 Sep 2017 15:29 - 15 Sep 2017 15:42
shoot, just realized I set my points to open on "T" instead of "F". fixing that now....
Aaaaand didn't change anything to be now be set on "F"...
Should I decrease main again?
Aaaaand didn't change anything to be now be set on "F"...
Should I decrease main again?
Last edit: 15 Sep 2017 15:42 by harmsworthj.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- SWest
- Offline
- Sustaining Member
- 10 22 2014
- Posts: 23165
- Thanks: 2802
Re: Runaway idle but sooty plugs???!
15 Sep 2017 16:43
When my valve guide seals were leaking I had to go down one step on the pilots. How old are yours?
Steve
Steve
Z1b1000 1975 Z1b
kzrider.com/forum/11-projects/598262-kz-...-will-it-live#672882
kzrider.com/forum/2-engine/597654-poser?start=240#704229
kzrider.com/forum/11-projects/598262-kz-...-will-it-live#672882
kzrider.com/forum/2-engine/597654-poser?start=240#704229
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- harmsworthj
- Topic Author
- Offline
- User
- Posts: 23
- Thanks: 0
Re: Runaway idle but sooty plugs???!
15 Sep 2017 21:30
not sure. potentially 40yrs? its not burning oil while running or on startup tho. would;t i see blue smoke?
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- kevski
- Offline
- User
- Posts: 431
- Thanks: 160
Re: Runaway idle but sooty plugs???!
15 Sep 2017 22:27 - 16 Sep 2017 05:06
I see you have an aftermarket air filter on it, I bet the shoulder in it is blocking the air flow through the pilot circuit, i have never understood why anyone uses these aftermarket filters when the motors were made to run at optimum with air boxes, i see a programme called fantom motors last night where they done a kz750, they put pods on it, charged the owner around 8k run it up the road and it ran like a dog.
Last edit: 16 Sep 2017 05:06 by kevski.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- harmsworthj
- Topic Author
- Offline
- User
- Posts: 23
- Thanks: 0
Re: Runaway idle but sooty plugs???!
15 Sep 2017 23:58
I've run it without the filter on and it runs just as rough.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.