Carb Tuning

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25 Jul 2013 21:02 - 25 Jul 2013 21:04 #598274 by jdevries
Carb Tuning was created by jdevries
1978 KZ650B (14K original miles)

Here is some background.

Not running when purchased. (Traded for a flyrod :P )
Leaking fuel out of all 4 carbs from the bowls and overflows.
Rebuilt carbs, gaskets, seals, etc.
**Cleaned and re-sealed original tank (it was rusted inside).
No Petcock, running straight with inline filter

**Dyna Jet 3 stage kit
15 Pilot
118 Main (Dyna)
new float valves and seats
Dyna needle on #2, no washer

Dyna S electronic ignition (points were bent corroded and all screws stripped)
Static timed only...(don't have a strobe)
Dyana 3 ohm coils + wires, good power and spark (old coils were cracked and corroded)

Vance & Hines 4 into 1 exhaust (old exhaust missing silencers)
Valves redone, ground seats and valves, new seals and clearance checked


Observations now that it is running.

Clicking sound from Cyl #4? while running (I assume need 1 size larger exhaust shim)
Compression is still low 90# (tester was from Harbor Freight)
(Originally 80#. Increased to 85 with TSP of oil in each cylinder which is why I did the valves)
Good air suction from all 4 carbs
No racing of engine when WD40 sprayed on intake boots
VERY hot running. Even on short drives, even valve covers are EXTREMELY hot
Oil light come on after 5 minute ride
Brand new V&H exhaust is discoloring already.
Bike is fouling plugs after 15 minutes run time
Will not rev past 5K. At 5k chugs and bogs down, like it's being choked out
Still leaking fuel from #2 and #3 carbs, overflow.
Tabs look like them have been bent before.

Bike is currently running good 0-5K, but struggles to start and must be choked even when warm.

What am I missing? Anyone want to give me a good starting point. I realize I have a lot of things going on at the same time here and have become a little overwhelmed. This is my first project. Started as fun, now I want to bury this bike......

Thx.

1978 KZ650B
4/1 Vance & Hines exhaust
pods
Dyna S Ignition
Dyana Coils and wires
Dyna jet kit

I'm new, and kinda slow, so bear with me....:)
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Last edit: 25 Jul 2013 21:04 by jdevries.

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25 Jul 2013 23:34 - 25 Jul 2013 23:39 #598302 by Patton
Replied by Patton on topic Carb Tuning
Some thoughts --

With brand new correct plugs, is there visible fat blue spark on each?
Is the timing advancer functioning correctly -- need lube/cleaning?
Was throttle held wide open during compression testing?
Clear tube test performed on carbs to assure correct fuel levels?

Float valve(s) may be leaking?
Are #1 and #4 carb overflow circuit(s) clear and functional -- not clogged?

Has gasoline intruded into the crankcase and diluted the oil?

Good Fortune! :)

1973 Z1
KZ900 LTD
Last edit: 25 Jul 2013 23:39 by Patton.

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26 Jul 2013 09:39 #598353 by koolaid_kid
Replied by koolaid_kid on topic Carb Tuning
I'll give you my opinion of at least some of the things you have going on:
1) Fuel overflow sounds like stuck or dirty needle valves. Try removing the fuel bowl, float, and pulling the needle and seat. Clean with carb cleaner and reinstall. Before installing on the bike, set the carb bank in a pan and connect a fuel tank to it. Let it set for a few minutes to see if it leaks. If it does not, you are GTG. If it still leaks, clean the seats again until they stop leaking. This method always works for me.
2) Overheating is usually a sign of a lean condition. Plug #2 is white, indicating an extremely lean condition.
3) If putting oil in the cylinders raises the compression, that is an indication of bad rings, not valves. Plug #4 looks oil fouled, and your extremely high oil consumption reinforces that possibility.
4) The 5000 limit and struggling to start is an indication of the jetting being way off. Not sure what to recommend there as I am not familiar with jetting VM carbs.
Just a few things to consider.
Best of luck.

1983 GPz 750
810 Wiseco, Kerker, K&N, DynoJet S3, Accel, Progressive, etc.

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26 Jul 2013 16:58 #598424 by jdevries
Replied by jdevries on topic Carb Tuning
Some thoughts --

With brand new correct plugs, is there visible fat blue spark on each? YES
Is the timing advancer functioning correctly -- need lube/cleaning? NOT SURE. DYNA S ELCTORNICS AND I HAVE NO STROBE, ONLY STATIC TUNED.
Was throttle held wide open during compression testing? NO
Clear tube test performed on carbs to assure correct fuel levels? YES.

Float valve(s) may be leaking? YES. PO HAD TABS PUSHED TOO FAR. TIPS OF THE TABS WERE TOUCHING THE BASES, AS A RESULT THE VAVLE NEVER SHUT OFF COMPLETELY. STILL LEAKING ON CARB #2
Are #1 and #4 carb overflow circuit(s) clear and functional -- not clogged? GOOD QUESTION. I'LL CHECK.

Has gasoline intruded into the crankcase and diluted the oil? OIL DOES NOT SMELL GASSY AT ALL....

1978 KZ650B
4/1 Vance & Hines exhaust
pods
Dyna S Ignition
Dyana Coils and wires
Dyna jet kit

I'm new, and kinda slow, so bear with me....:)

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26 Jul 2013 17:01 #598426 by jdevries
Replied by jdevries on topic Carb Tuning
I'll give you my opinion of at least some of the things you have going on:
1) Fuel overflow sounds like stuck or dirty needle valves. Try removing the fuel bowl, float, and pulling the needle and seat. Clean with carb cleaner and reinstall. Before installing on the bike, set the carb bank in a pan and connect a fuel tank to it. Let it set for a few minutes to see if it leaks. If it does not, you are GTG. If it still leaks, clean the seats again until they stop leaking. This method always works for me. NEEDLE AND SEAT ARE BRAND NEW AND CLEANED.

2) Overheating is usually a sign of a lean condition. Plug #2 is white, indicating an extremely lean condition. TURNED OUT AIR MIX SCREW 1/2 TURN. IS IT OK IF EACH INDIVIDUAL AIR MIX SCRES IS DIFFERENT FROM THE OTHERS?
3) If putting oil in the cylinders raises the compression, that is an indication of bad rings, not valves. Plug #4 looks oil fouled, and your extremely high oil consumption reinforces that possibility. THEY INCREASED 5# WITH A TSP OF OIL. I WAS EXPECTING A MUCH LARGER JUMP? THAT IS WHY I WENT WITH VALVES INSTEAD. IS THAT NOT CORRECT THINKING. HAD IT JUMPED 20# IT WOULD HAVE SCREAMED RINGS TO ME AS WELL?
4) The 5000 limit and struggling to start is an indication of the jetting being way off. Not sure what to recommend there as I am not familiar with jetting VM carbs. NO PROBLEM.
Just a few things to consider.

1978 KZ650B
4/1 Vance & Hines exhaust
pods
Dyna S Ignition
Dyana Coils and wires
Dyna jet kit

I'm new, and kinda slow, so bear with me....:)

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26 Jul 2013 17:11 - 26 Jul 2013 17:14 #598430 by koolaid_kid
Replied by koolaid_kid on topic Carb Tuning
Good progress. Still have issues with that #2 carb though.
Try another plug chop and see what you get.

1983 GPz 750
810 Wiseco, Kerker, K&N, DynoJet S3, Accel, Progressive, etc.
Last edit: 26 Jul 2013 17:14 by koolaid_kid.

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26 Jul 2013 17:11 #598431 by jdevries
Replied by jdevries on topic Carb Tuning
update

So, I felt like I was basically lean on idle, and rich on top end. So, I pushed carb float tabs back to basically straight. Rechecked float levels. All looked good except the middle carbs are harder to check using the clear tube method just because of the weird angles. Looked to be withing 2-4mm from the top of the float bowl.

I was running the stock pilot #15, needle to #2 per Dyno-Jet instructions and installed their 118 main. Still no throttle over 5K. Just for fun, I pulled the 118 main's, and replaced the with a Mikuni 102 main, turned the air mix screws out 2 turns (was 1 turn), and now I have full rev of the engine! Progress!! Idle still needs to be choked on initial start up, and idle is high. maybe need to go out another turn in mix?

Still leaking on #2 through overflow. Damnit!! This trial and error shit sucks!

1978 KZ650B
4/1 Vance & Hines exhaust
pods
Dyna S Ignition
Dyana Coils and wires
Dyna jet kit

I'm new, and kinda slow, so bear with me....:)

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