Another Starting Problem

Posted in other elec topic

...Re:1978 KZ1000 No Spark - 2008/01/07 20:27 Lo and behold the thing started today!! YeeHaw...but...

It cranked for awhile and finally started and I ran it for a few minutes. It was idling at apx 2k and it reved easily to 3k. It blew a lot of black smoke though and a little blue smoke. I expected that...

So it ran yesterday for the first time ever and
aside from other problem the bike cranks strong but no fire with the following:

.DS2-1 E ignition
.Cranks faster and easier with throttle open
.Some gas coming out of cyl 3 and 4 overflow tube
.New plugs
.After it ran plugs 1 and 3 were black but dry
.Cleaned plugs so they are new and not fouled
.Checked for good spark
.Some gas spurting from carb intake, but not a lot
.Some small carb (thuds) backfires when cranked for awhile
.When cranking placed palm over each carb, pressure against my hand and come away with gas on hand

Questions on rotor position for timing: The assembly has a slot on the bottom on the flange and I align that with the pin hole on the crank. Is that right? There is not an actual 'pin' for this is there??

Otherwise, I just think I have a fuel problem. How can I trouble shoot this?

Dave

In my frustration I did what I know better than to do. I changed a number of things at the same time and it started. But I don't know which did the trick.

I pulled each plug and cleaned them.
I put a couple of drops of gas in each spark plug hole and replaced the plugs.

I removed the rotor plate and assembly, remounted the assembly and replaced the rotor plate (with the magnets on it) and rotated the plate counter clockwise as far as it would go on the screws.

Cranked and started.

Ran it for a few minutes to warm it up.

Shut off with the key, wait two minutes and restarted, no problem.

Ran it for another few minutes and shut it off.

Waited 15 minutes for it to cool a little and now it cranks but does not start.

Arrrrrggghhhh!!!

Dave

Let's start with the crank end. The crank end has a pin in it to locate into the little slot on the mechanical timing advance. If the pin is missing, buy a "compression" pin... I don't know what this type pin is actually called but they sell them at Home Depot. The pin is actually rolled with a slot along its length which when compressed into a hole, provides tensioning.

I have had to drill this hole out several times on various bikes when the OEM pin snapped. The OEM pin was solid steel and you MAY be able to find one in the parts diagrams for your bike via www.kawasaki.com - I have just used the "compression" type pin instead.

As far as the other issues you are having, I have no history. You kind of jumped into the narrative about the bike in the middle of whatever you are doing. Sounds like you really need to get a manual and ensure that the valve timing is OK and adjust the cam chain tensioner and then do a valve adjustment... Get the ignition timing issue sorted out as it WILL NOT be timed properly without the pin to locate the mechanical timing advance and then undertake to mess with the carbs. You may even need to check the ignition system out thoroughly first as well... pickup coils, igniter, ignition coils and wiring, etc. Then the carbs....

I'm not expert on this however I did have the same sort of problem with the Carb's on my KZ750.

I found that the piston in the carburetor was stuck in an open position because of some sour gas.

With the carb-piston stuck in the half-up position I found that the Carb-floats continued to demand more gas, which led to leaking overflows and a poor mix.

My bike started ok but lost power when when I turned the accelerator.

I'm not expert on this however I did have the same sort of problem with the Carb's on my KZ750.

I found that the piston in the carburetor was stuck in an open position because of some sour gas.

With the carb-piston stuck in the half-up position I found that the Carb-floats continued to demand more gas, which led to leaking overflows and a poor mix.

My bike started ok but lost power when when I turned the accelerator.

Youre right, I have been dealing with elec problems in another thread and got carried away. The string is at the following link and the first post follows. Sorry. Dave

kzrider.com/component/option,com_joomlab...mit,20/limitstart,0/

I am cobbling together a 1978 KZ1000 from a couple of bikes, an A2 and a Z1. The engine I am using was built by a drag bike buider who is unknown to me, I bought it from a thrid party, and is said to have a Z1 crank, 1075 kit and performance cams installed. I put the engine in it over the past few weeks. My bike has the stock coils and wires but this would be the first time to run.

The engine: the distributor cover had nothing installed underneath where the points would normally be. I installed electronic ignition for this bike, the DS2-1.

I am having a problem getting spark with the DS2-1. The engine cranks strong.

I have not ruled out the coils or other components as I dont know how to do that. I admit that I am somewhat electrically challenged (good with wrenches!). All of the elec parts on this bike are orig as best as I can tell and there is no telling who worked on this thing before I got it.

All other elec components seem to work fine though, lights, neutral light, turn signals, head light, brake lights etc.

I could understand if I got the firing order or timing wrong and could address that, but I assume I still should be getting spark even if those elements were not quite right.

I have a multimeter but am a novice.

Does anyone trouble shooting procedures or suggestions to get me moving in the right direction?

Dave

Compression pin? What does this look like? Like a washer with a key on it or something?

I went nosing around the hardware store today and found what is called a 'tension pin' which is as described. I see what you mean. They ran less than $.20 per so I bought a variety of sizes to see which would work best.
Dave

There you go... tensioner pin. I was pretty sure it wasn't a compression pin but that is all I could think of. You will end up with the right size but too long... chop it off with a Dremel cut off after installed... it only sticks out about 1/8" if memory serves.

I mentioned tune up issues prior to mucking with the carbs and it would seem that the bike is not making spark nor is it likely timed yet. Since I am a single minded old fart, HAVE YOU ADJUSTED VALVE CLEARANCES? HAVE YOU TENSIONED CAM CHAIN? IS CAM CHAIN TIMING CORRECT AND HAVE YOU ACTUALLY VERIFIED?

We could muck around forever at this end of the problem and never fix it if you have done the basic things. Once they are done, then look at the ignition. All the electrical stuff on your bike works great except the ignition. Why? Because the ignition doesn't have much to do with any of the other stuff... It is powered off the red fused sub-circuit as are your coils... If they Dyna S doesn't have power going to it or the coils don't have power going to them, I suspect you can crank till the cows come home... Please do the stuff in the prior paragraph... you are probably hot to ride this bike BUT if you have the cam chain off a link or the valves are not opening due to lack of clearance, you WILL NEVER TIME THE BIKE CORRECTLY in all liklihood nor will you get much farther in this fix-up. I have a valve clearance article on my website that might help... under wg's Tech Stuff Index. Have a look.

Agreed.

I know I have spark to all four cylinders and the coils are good. Did the checking as described in the other thread and posted the results, so primary and secondary are good to go.

Since I can get it to start once in awhile I have suspected the basic problem is the timing. The rotor assembly has probably been moving around without that pin so that may be the one big intermittant problem.

So the pin will fit snuggly into the hole and when the rotor assembly is attached, it will compress the pin slightly and stay in place? Only 1/8" exposed you say? Thats my next little project then. The hole for the pin is pretty shallow so not much purchase there.

As for valve clearance and cam chain I will need to check. Never done that before so should be interesting. The engine came built, 1075 kit, Z1 crank, and performance cams. I have the Clymer book now but this may not be applicable given the mods.

This bike needs so much it is not near ridable. This is a winter project / learning experience so I am not expecting the first ride until spring sometime, finger crossed.

Many Thanks for the help.

Dave

Well, I have tried to give you my best advise as a professional mechanic. DO NOT trust what anyone told you about your bike or what they claimed to have done. CHECK the things I noted before moving on to the ignition. This stuff must be done in the correct sequence otherwise you are wasting time and will likely damage something. The tension pin should fit in the hole by driving it in... I doubt you could get the larger size started or the smaller size to stay in the hole... just make sure you cut it long enough to catch the advance mechanism alignment slot.

And I appreciate it. I would never get through most of this stuff without your, and others, help. It's great you are willing to take the time to assist and I hope someday I can help others with stuff I actually know something about.

I bought this bike because it was pretty complete, some stuff actually worked but it had a frozen engine after sitting for 8 years in a garage. I told my wife that I wanted to know more about bikes and how they work plus end up with something cool and really fun to ride. Got her permission to make a mess in the garage this winter and here I am, drowning. I have had many bikes in the past, many needing some work which I happily did, but never a project like this.

So I knew going in I had problems and after tearing down the top half of the engine I saw the rust on the pistons and coating the valves and then started looking for another engine, one with some level of confidence it would eventually run.

Not an easy thing to find by the way.

I pulled the A2's engine and replaced it with this one with the history as I explained, although as you say, dubious history at best, and oddly unverifiable. I rebuilt the carbs from the A2 to oem specs as the new one had none.

The list of things to do is quite long but my approach is to get a running bike first and then go after the rest figuring that 'if it don't run, then the rest is just a classroom exercise'.

Dave