Trying to get my 77kz650 on the road

Well its been a while since I have been on. Some of you might remember me. I took a break on working on my kz for 2 reasons Money and Frustration!! Well I have 77 kz650 which has sat for a few years according to the guy I bought it off of. On it first day home I got it started. I performed the normal things before starting: changed oil, oil filter, drained the gas tank and replaced with fresh gas, changed the spark plugs, put a little marvel mystry oil on the pistons, a little starting fluid and hot damn she was runnin. Not that great but running. It had a slapping noise, thought for sure I was hearing piston slap due to bad rings? But through this site I found it was a issue with coils.
So my search for a set of coils started,ones that my poor white ass couls afford.I ended up buying a set off this forum from a guy. Wrong coils. No harm. EBAY!! got a set put them on and the bike ran better. Not right though. The bike was addicted to starting fluid. So agian I found myself on this forum looking for words of wisdom. I was told had to be carbs. So I attempted to do a rebuild. Trial and error, I got the carbs clean. Great improvement. Still not right, So I did the Ignition power upgrade (relay and rewire to supply coils). Starting became easier. Still needed starting fluid. So I picked up another set of used coils. No improvement worth speaking about. So it was decided that I needed to get a set of Dyna green coils, (by the wise KZ GODS). My broke ass could not afford to buy a new set and the wife was starting to get that glare in her eyes. So I backed off the bike for a while, and the fact that the money just was not there for the bike, helped. (I am the sole money maker for our family of 4)I changed my focus on the shity paint on the bike, I stipped it down and repainted it. My barn find had 5 layers of paint and not a sole repainted it the correct way. Hell the factory decals were just painted right over, and lets not even talk about the dents I discovered on the tank. With a bondo job from hell. Anyways I repaint the bike (flat Black) Spray Bombed and looks great. So a couple monthes fly by. And I started itiching for some more punishment. I find a guy with some Dyna greens on EBAY, price was right for the used coils. So I scooped them up on the cheap.
So here I find myself again. I got the coils bought some wires. Slapped them on and the bike started but with some starting fluid. She sat for two monthes so I was ok with that. Afer the first start it ran great, restarted with ease, and i was happy. The real test was if it would restart the next day on a cold start. And for the first time since I have owned the bike it started without starting fluid. Victory!! So I thought. Still was not running that great, starts were still a little hard (from a cold start). So this evening, I was out in the driveway turning wrenches on the bike. Trying to tweek it, for improvement. Idle jumping around. Was thinking this is the reason for the hard starting. Once the bike starts I have to adjust the idle down. Then when the next time starting I need to adjust it back up to get it to start and stay running. So I got the bike started and running, idle bounces around on its own. It idles good for a while then it revs itself up, I tweek it down, then shortly later I am tweeking it back up. So its getting dark and I have had enough punishment for the night. Then I notice the pipes are glowing red (right near the block). Thought it was normal at first, but then I saw that numbers 1,2,3 are glowing but number 4 was not red at all. So is it the coils (again)? The timing? bad wire connection? Bad carb? The bike does not seem to be running like its only on 3cyl. Or is it because the bike was sitting on it kick stand and leaning away from Number 4-starving it for gas -gravity.
As always, any thoughts or suggestion are appreciated. I am at a loss here. I need to get the bike on the road for transportation. My car lost it reverse on the trany. I really need to get this bike on the road!! I need to get it running right and get some tires. And oh yeah, on budget of close to zero.
HELP!! SOS!!! From clearwater Fla.

It sounds like you started out in the right direction, I would have done all the things you did to begin getting a bike back to life. I think you have a couple issues. Dirty fuel system or carbs not really clean, and an air leak. You don't mention having a manual or going through a tuneup, which is the first step after cleaning things up a bit.

Was your fuel tank rusty? You should have an inline fuel filter installed, the petcock screen isn't good enough to catch rust and dirt.

Did you test the coils with a multimeter and decide they are bad? I don't see how coils and a slapping noise relate...

An idle that won't stay steady is usually a sign of an air leak. Having extra air means your mix is lean, and lean is HOT. HOT means red pipes. I've heard of red pipes but never saw them. If you pull your plugs are they white? White plugs confirm the fuel mixture is lean. Normal is a tan color. The air leak usually comes from cracked intake manifolds. The next time the bike is running spray WD40 on the intake manifolds. (Between the carb and engine head) If the idle settles down as the WD40 fills and seals the cracks then you know you have a repair. Let us know what happens with this test, you can repair them cheap, maybe. It's been done before.

You said the #4 cylinder wasn't red, which is a good thing as long as it sounds like it's firing on all four cylinders. It may be the only cylinder running properly too.

When you cleaned the carbs did you totally tear them down to each little piece? That's the only way to do it.

Did you adjust the float level by the "wet" method? If the floats are set so the fuel level is too low, you can get a lean mixture. We can show you how.

Did you bench synch the carbs? If the carbs are out of synch they pull different from each other, idle suffers from this.

Did you check the valve clearances? It's part of a good tuneup.

And the timing and point gap, are they all set to spec?

Most of the stuff I mentioned is written up in the archives, the filebase, or from other postings. Even without a manual you could probably get by just from this forum.


Kent

Post edited by: OKC_Kent, at: 2007/10/05 21:36

Post edited by: OKC_Kent, at: 2007/10/06 10:22

EVERYTHING OKC Kent said is RIGHT on the money. The only thing I would add to checking the intakes for leaks is to also check the intake "puds" also. They are rubber caps on the bottom of the carb intakes that go over a metel port. If they are sucking air you will also be lean and can get those cherry red pipes.

Here is a pic of the puds, check where the arrow is pointing.

Post edited by: dreamsofaz1r, at: 2007/10/05 22:04

what they said!!!:woohoo:

Thanks guys!
I have tested the new/used coils and they are good.

There is minor rust in the tank and I have flushed the tank several times. The in-line fuel filter is a must on my list of things to do now.

I do have some cracks on the plastic intakes. I will try the WD test. Will JB WELD be a cheap fix? Or maybe some opoxy? And when I check them I will double check the pod plugs.

When I cleaned the carbs I did a pretty good tare down. I let them soak in some carb cleaner and then brought them to my job and let them soak in ultrasonic cleaner. I changed the O-rings and blew everthing clean with air. I am sure they could have been done better but with my experiance I did not want to go over board with the carbs. Carbs can get a little scary FOR ME AT LEAST.

Setting the floats I can't remember. I know I had an issue with them being too high overflowing thru the tubes. So maybe they are too low now. WET Method??

The bench test. No I didn't bench test them. I know from my Clymer manual I need a special tool. Don't have one. And this procedure seems complicated.

I did throw a New set of points on the bike When I first got it. I set them the best I could. I tried to set the timing with my timing light but, Damn they don't give you much room to see. And well my timing light is a cheapo and not very bright. Any suggestions?

I have not pulled the valve covers to check the valve clearances. Should I really do that now or wait until I rule out other issues?

As far as the slapping noise. I found through this forum someone experiancing the same noise. If the coils aren't good they sometimes fire ok at higher RPM's and at lower RPM's they don't fire (dead cylinder will cause this noise to happen) The noise is cured. I believe.

I am going to work on the bike in a little bit. So any other suggestions will probably be put to use this afternoon.

Some pics of the bike after the new paint.

sticking with the flat black, or is that an undercoat... going with stripes or anything?

Another one. What you guys Think?

A friend is going to pin stip it after I cure the other problems. With some red probably Some old school stuff.

srobie1 wrote:

Thanks guys!
I do have some cracks on the plastic intakes. I will try the WD test. Will JB WELD be a cheap fix? Or maybe some opoxy? And when I check them I will double check the pod plugs.

Remove the carbs as you may want to bench sync them. You remove the top covers off the carbs and loosen the locknut.Turn the adjusting screw to allow for a slight clearance between the carb body and the slide. A quick and accurate way is to get a thin wire about 1mm thick, or the red tube from a spray can. Insert it between the slide and body and adjust all four so the tube can be removed in and out without noticeable friction.

Remove the intake manifolds and one way to seal them cheap is with silicone caulk. Rub it into the cracks and let it set up. If you have a vacuum bag machine I would try that too. Some guys have used plain black electricians tape, but you use the best thing you have. Another guy placed a piece of bicycle inner tube over the manifold, rolled on like a sock, and sealed it on somehow, maybe with glue or silicone. You get the idea. I may not use JB Weld or epoxy tho..no special reason why either. I think I would use something more 'rubbery'. How about Liquid Electricians Tape?

When I cleaned the carbs I did a pretty good tare down. I let them soak in some carb cleaner and then brought them to my job and let them soak in ultrasonic cleaner. I changed the O-rings and blew everthing clean with air. I am sure they could have been done better but with my experiance I did not want to go over board with the carbs. Carbs can get a little scary FOR ME AT LEAST.

Sounds clean to me

Setting the floats I can't remember. I know I had an issue with them being too high overflowing thru the tubes. So maybe they are too low now. WET Method??

The wet method is just measuring the level of the gas in the bowl. You get a clear piece of vinyl, plastic tube about 1/4" OD. I'm not sure of the size, so take a carb bowl with you to the hardware store. The hose should be a jam fit into the drain screw opening. Get about 12"-15". Hold the hose next to the bowl, DON"T move it, and let the bowl fill with fuel. The gas flows into the hose, seeks it's level with the bowl, and you should have the level about 1/8" below the carb body/bowl mating surface. Adjust as needed. If the level is too low, bend the float tang down. If the level is too high, bend the float tang up. See this pic below.

The bench test. No I didn't bench test them. I know from my Clymer manual I need a special tool. Don't have one. And this procedure seems complicated.

You mean the carb synch or the float level? See above

I did throw a New set of points on the bike When I first got it. I set them the best I could. I tried to set the timing with my timing light but, Damn they don't give you much room to see. And well my timing light is a cheapo and not very bright. Any suggestions?

Time it in the dark.

I have not pulled the valve covers to check the valve clearances. Should I really do that now or wait until I rule out other issues?

Ya, wait on it. But you should do it sooner rather than later...

As far as the slapping noise. I found through this forum someone experiancing the same noise. If the coils aren't good they sometimes fire ok at higher RPM's and at lower RPM's they don't fire (dead cylinder will cause this noise to happen) The noise is cured. I believe.

I am going to work on the bike in a little bit. So any other suggestions will probably be put to use this afternoon.

Post edited by: OKC_Kent, at: 2007/10/06 14:54

Thanks OKC kent.

I have completed setting the floats. 1 and 2 were high. 3 was ok and 4 was low.

I have put some high temp gasket sealer on the manifolds. And I plan on wrapping them some electricians tape once it sets up.

I am going to go right now and sync them the way you discribed.

And I found some fine trash in the bottom of the carb bowls. Looks like rust. So I am going to have to get a filter.

I am going to reset the points too.

Thanks.

OKC_Kent,
I am getting ready for the sync.
I have a question pertaining to it.
Setting the gap between the carb body and the slide?
Is this the gap in the throat of the carb, My manual shows a carb body and a throttle valve. is this valve the SLIDE. And do I need to remove the Needle Jet to be in the center or is ok to be offset to one side?