Top idler

Had an intermittent  noise from the centre of the motor for a while, all valve lash correct and cams fine, so i investigated today and found the top idler wheel not behaving right, so i took the rivet off removed the wheel and it come out in two parts, lucky i had a wheel holder with the bolt through it, i put a wheel on i re-worked a while ago, hopefully this will be the the cure to the noise, if not the top end will be coming off this winter.
 

It is good that you caught it before it completely failed

I had a similar problem with one of the idlers under the head.  I changed it out but the noise is still there.  I'm suspecting a crank bearing but not sure.  They all looked good when I had the engine apart a year or so ago.

 

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Had an intermittent  noise from the centre of the motor for a while, all valve lash correct and cams fine, so i investigated today and found the top idler wheel not behaving right, so i took the rivet off removed the wheel and it come out in two parts, lucky i had a wheel holder with the bolt through it, i put a wheel on i re-worked a while ago, hopefully this will be the the cure to the noise, if not the top end will be coming off this winter.
 

Excuse me if I'm supposed to know this because I don't spend much time in here or with my KZs like I should, what exactly did you do that the idler sprocket that you say you reworked? And what kind of noise were you getting from the center of your engine, was it a sharp ticking sound??? What?  I'm in the process of gathering parts to replace a timing chain, idlers and such. What's up?

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Excuse me if I'm supposed to know this because I don't spend much time in here or with my KZs like I should, what exactly did you do that the idler sprocket that you say you reworked? 

The bonded rubber centre degrades and becomes detached.
The sprocket ring can be salvaged by replacing the center with a solid insert.
I use aluminium but steel or brass can be used.

 

Thanks zed1015. 46k on my engine, I hear a high pitched roller sound in the timing chain and rollers, is this what you're hearing Kevski? Give us an update on the top roller swap out if it changed anything you were hearing. 
 I figured it was time for a timing chain and rollers, but it may be normal for these engines. Had the cam cover off two weeks ago setting the valves, every one of them was loose, as in up to .008 clearance on some of them. Noticed minimal slack in the chain around the upper roller. Never had valves get loose on any of these bikes, but this is the first time I've had the cam cover off this bike since I bought it a couple years ago, so I have no idea what the last guy set them at when he did a re-ring a few years ago, and he doesn't remember. I set them all at .003-.005.
    Using a stethoscope, the sound is louder at the top than the front of the engine, and is loud on the aluminum end plugs in the head. Sounds typical of chain noise. Would a new D.I.D. chain quiet this down any? Modified upper roller? 
There's definitely chain/roller noise, just wonder how much I need to worry about it.

Valve clearance is 0.10mm ( .004" ) minimum to 0.15mm on a stock engine and you want to set them as close to the higher figure as possible and if the shims take you a little over at say 0.17mm it's ok.
Race cams will run up to 0.20mm clearance.

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Valve clearance is 0.10mm ( .004" ) minimum to 0.15mm on a stock engine and you want to set them as close to the higher figure as possible and if the shims take you a little over at say 0.17mm it's ok.
Race cams will run up to 0.20mm clearance.  


 

You must be giving specs on a MKII engine. Everything I read on this site says the clearance is .05mm - .10mm(.002-.004) on 4 cyl. engines up to '78, and .05mm - .15mm(.002-.006) on MKII. So yeah, mine were too loose at .008+. I like to run them at near max on all my bikes, especially the exhaust side, hence the .005 on a couple of them, which I don't have any issues with. FWIW, I was hearing a ticking that I didn't like before I set them, I don't hear it like that now. 
This bike has Andrews 1X cams in it, I set them per factory specs. What are you calling a "race" cam? I wouldn't run shim over on race cams.

kzrider.com/219-articles/technical-tips/...ing-valve-clearances

My question was about the chain/roller noise kevski was speaking of, not on setting valves . I put that in here to reference what I saw while I had the cam cover off setting the valves when I heard a ticking I didn't like in the top end. The Clicky tick sound is to a minimum now, but I still hear the chain/roller noise, and I'm >assuming< that is what kevski was addressing when he posted this. Is that chain/roller noise something to be concerned with on a 46k mile engine? It is not a loose rattle sound, it's more of a higher pitched whine. Like a chain and roller makes inside an alubidum air cooled engine....
On my previous '78 KZ1000, I got this sharp intermittent ticking sound ever so often that I never could pin down, and it never gave me a problem the whole time I ran that bike. It didn't make that noise every time I rode it, but would pop up for a few seconds, then be gone. That was a strange deal, never figured that one out. 

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Valve clearance is 0.10mm ( .004" ) minimum to 0.15mm on a stock engine and you want to set them as close to the higher figure as possible and if the shims take you a little over at say 0.17mm it's ok.
Race cams will run up to 0.20mm clearance.  



 

You must be giving specs on a MKII engine. Everything I read on this site says the clearance is .05mm - .10mm(.002-.004) on 4 cyl. engines up to '78, and .05mm - .15mm(.002-.006) on MKII. So yeah, mine were too loose at .008+. I like to run them at near max on all my bikes, especially the exhaust side, hence the .005 on a couple of them, which I don't have any issues with. FWIW, I was hearing a ticking that I didn't like before I set them, I don't hear it like that now. 
This bike has Andrews 1X cams in it, I set them per factory specs. What are you calling a "race" cam? I wouldn't run shim over on race cams.


 

No!. Early Z1 specs were 0.05 to 0.10mm but this was quickly changed to 0.10 to 0.15mm due to instances of valve burning.
All Z9/Z1000 engines should run the revised 0.10 to 0.15 clearances.
With high lift cams you can run shim over up to around 418 lift with stock grooved buckets..
It's the sweep of the cam lobe tipping the shim into the groove that runs around the top of the bucket that is the limiter.
Modified buckets without the groove can run higher lift cams.
 

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Valve clearance is 0.10mm ( .004" ) minimum to 0.15mm on a stock engine and you want to set them as close to the higher figure as possible and if the shims take you a little over at say 0.17mm it's ok.
Race cams will run up to 0.20mm clearance.  




 

You must be giving specs on a MKII engine. Everything I read on this site says the clearance is .05mm - .10mm(.002-.004) on 4 cyl. engines up to '78, and .05mm - .15mm(.002-.006) on MKII. So yeah, mine were too loose at .008+. I like to run them at near max on all my bikes, especially the exhaust side, hence the .005 on a couple of them, which I don't have any issues with. FWIW, I was hearing a ticking that I didn't like before I set them, I don't hear it like that now. 
This bike has Andrews 1X cams in it, I set them per factory specs. What are you calling a "race" cam? I wouldn't run shim over on race cams.



 

No!. Early Z1 specs were 0.05 to 0.10mm but this was quickly changed to 0.10 to 0.15mm due to instances of valve burning.
All Z9/Z1000 engines should run the revised 0.10 to 0.15 clearances.
With high lift cams you can run shim over up to around 418 lift with stock grooved buckets..
It's the sweep of the cam lobe tipping the shim into the groove that runs around the top of the bucket that is the limiter.
Modified buckets without the groove can run higher lift cams.

 

Ok, so I don't have this written down in any of my personal notes in any of my Z1/KZ manuals, and I don't see it written anywhere else. FWIW, I have one IN @ .003, the other 3 @ .004. One EX. on .004, the other 3 @ .005 .  I'm calling that good. I'll ask you a question on how you would set your personal bike. If all the valves were @ .007 - .0085 with Andrews 1X cams, would you call that good, or would you tighten them up to what I did? 
Still waiting on an answer about the chain/roller noise this thread was started about.

Stock OEM clearance of .004" to .006" ( 0.10 to 0.15mm ) for the 1X cams.
Again if a shim change puts the high figure to 0.16mm/0.17mm that's fine ( GPZ Unitrack runs 0.18mm on stock cams ).
Setting them on the wide side does increase the ticking but better that than no noise which could mean over tight or zero clearance.
46k miles on the stock camchain is getting up there depending on how the bikes been maintained and may be on it's way out.
Some have done 100k on well looked after, gently ridden engines though.
Due to the age though the original stock idlers do degrade and regardless of mileage the rubber hardens over time due to heat and acidic combustion by products in the oil and separates from the outer sprocket ring or the inner steel hub.
Other ticking or rattling noises can be caused by loose bucket bores or cam end float etc and although maybe annoying may not be detrimental to the running.
My Manzano head ticks loudly on and off when cold from the left hand side and there's nothing measurably wrong with it.
It's been like it over 20 years and hasn't got any worse.
As for an answer to the chain /roller noise, i'll leave it up to Kevski to report whether the solid idler mod cured it or not..


 

[/quote]
No!. Early Z1 specs were 0.05 to 0.10mm but this was quickly changed to 0.10 to 0.15mm due to instances of valve burning.
All Z9/Z1000 engines should run the revised 0.10 to 0.15 clearances.
 [/quote]

Where was that change published? My 1978 kz1000 A1/A2/D1 FSM still gives the 0.05-0.10mm clearance figure. Unfortunately I just did my valve clearance with those numbers.