TOPIC:

The right tool to pull out and push in the valve seals



Use this plastic tube to install the new valve seals, otherwise you can damage the seal lip ( #4 ) at the key grove of the valve stem
You can use a drinking straw with 7 mm ID as tube.

Michael

Thank you both for the very helpful responses!

Scirrocco, I actually didn't see your post until after completing the deed tonight. I'm certain those tools would have made the job easier, but I have to say, Daftrusty's technique worked like a charm. Also, I *cannot believe* I waited so long to buy a valve spring compressor...holy crap, no more bruised thumbs. What a wonderful tool.

So I've got the valve seals changed out and put it back together with some assembly lube. One dumbass thing that I wish I'd have done before I put it back together was finish removing the remains of the gasket material on the valve cover seat. I don't know that this engine has been apart before, but those gaskets are *on* there. I'm either going to have a buy some abrasive wheels for the dremel tool, get some gasket remover, or both. They are like concrete - any tips fellas?

Also, I took some better photos of the barrels and the #1 piston. It does seem like there is some rust at the end of the barrel and some definite discoloration on the #1 & #2 bores, though they are smooth. It's almost like some moisture got in there at some point - that's the only thing I can think of.

#1 Barrel - No Flash


#1 Barrel - Flash


#3 & #4


Here's the #1 piston, the rear of the skirt has some obvious scoring/lines on it, but the front and the rest of the pistons look pretty good. What in the heck could cause this kind of selective scoring issue? If it matters at all, the #1 piston is the side with the oval o-ring that blew out and necessitated this tear down in the first place.



Upon this further inspection, I'm beginning to think that a professional honing and perhaps evening a new #1 piston & all new rings would be a good idea - thoughts?

Yeah...that cylinder bore looks bad. It appears that excessive moisture has caused the piston rings to rust to the cylinder bore. You can see the rusty outline of the oil scraper spring in the cylinder. It looks like in the processes of the rusted piston being unstuck, it cocked the piston in the bore and hence the scoring on one side. I would frankly just completely smooth out the rough spots with a scotch bright pad (or soda blast) and run it with new rings. Technically, once smoothed out, those "damaged" areas will never touch the cylinder wall again as long as everything is assembled according to specs.
I ran into exactly this on a 550 motor I bought from craigslist. When I had the cylinder bores honed out to the point all traces of pitting and corrosion was gone, the bores where then out of tolerance. (And I still had to pay them $$ for the time they wasted on honing it) I would have had to buy oversized pistons and pay more $$$ to have the bores machined to accept them. So I bought another cylinder block in the end.
It's a tough choice... pay a machinist to have it honed out and hope its within tolerance, or buy a ball hone and see if it will come out the easy way. If you end up buying a used cylinder block, you will need to hone it before you put new rings in it anyway.

I have had a terrible time with base gaskets that turned to stone as well. Nothing worked to soften them. Gasket remover, brake fluid, acetone, paint stripper...nothing worked. So I used a razor blade that to slowly scrape it all off. It took me days. The razor blades have a tendency to gouge the aluminum so I bent the blades in a slight bowed or U shape and scraped with the center. It never gouged after that and was way more effective in peeling into the just the gasket.
Never ever use a rotoloc or abrasive wheels or anything on a drill to remove the gaskets. It will also unevenly remove aluminum and your base gasket, head gasket or valve cover will never ever seal right again.

Lots to think about.

Daftrusty wrote: Yeah...that cylinder bore looks bad. It appears that excessive moisture has caused the piston rings to rust to the cylinder bore. You can see the rusty outline of the oil scraper spring in the cylinder. It looks like in the processes of the rusted piston being unstuck, it cocked the piston in the bore and hence the scoring on one side. I would frankly just completely smooth out the rough spots with a scotch bright pad (or soda blast) and run it with new rings. Technically, once smoothed out, those "damaged" areas will never touch the cylinder wall again as long as everything is assembled according to specs.
I ran into exactly this on a 550 motor I bought from craigslist. When I had the cylinder bores honed out to the point all traces of pitting and corrosion was gone, the bores where then out of tolerance. (And I still had to pay them $$ for the time they wasted on honing it) I would have had to buy oversized pistons and pay more $$$ to have the bores machined to accept them. So I bought another cylinder block in the end.
It's a tough choice... pay a machinist to have it honed out and hope its within tolerance, or buy a ball hone and see if it will come out the easy way. If you end up buying a used cylinder block, you will need to hone it before you put new rings in it anyway.

I have had a terrible time with base gaskets that turned to stone as well. Nothing worked to soften them. Gasket remover, brake fluid, acetone, paint stripper...nothing worked. So I used a razor blade that to slowly scrape it all off. It took me days. The razor blades have a tendency to gouge the aluminum so I bent the blades in a slight bowed or U shape and scraped with the center. It never gouged after that and was way more effective in peeling into the just the gasket.
Never ever use a rotoloc or abrasive wheels or anything on a drill to remove the gaskets. It will also unevenly remove aluminum and your base gasket, head gasket or valve cover will never ever seal right again.

Lots to think about.

Daftrusty,

Sorry for the delayed response, I really appreciate your feedback.

So I did what you suggested; I drove out to a buddy's friend this afternoon and used his ball hone. Unfortunately, the easy way didn't work for these jugs either. Even after a few passes with the ball hone there is one spot that has some pitting that I only think a boring and oversized pistons would fix. That said, I'd guess that a +1 oversized would probably do the trick as it's pretty smooth.

I'm intrigued by your idea to just throw some new rings in it...what are your thoughts about getting a new piston too? Or just run that same one? Wouldn't the rough spot cause issues with the seating of the new rings?

I guess if I go the other direction; where is the best place to find oversized pistons for the KZ550? Ebay seems to be heavy on the Wiseco Big Bore jobs, but I don't really want to big bore it. Nor am I real excited about putting a ton of $$ into it..but I don't like to do things wrong if I can find a decent solution.

That cylinder indeed does look bad. The only good news is that the worst rust area is in a spot that the rings will not touch. The piston travel does not reach the bottom 2ish inches of the bore. But the other areas of corrosion is pretty disconcerting. I would NOT put new rings in. It would be a total waste of money in that condition. The corrosion has actual eaten away low spots, so it won't damage the rings, but it will let combustion gasses by. Thus lowering compression, power and it will increase blow-by gasses and pressure into the crankcase which leads to blown seals.
Options....
1. Buy 1st oversize piston. They are no longer available from Kawasaki but a guy in Sweden has one with rings for $118. (not including the $50-$75 you will get charged to bore the cylinder out.) The most straight forward option, but you could buy an entire good used block and pistons for that. Maybe a used engine.
2. Good used cylinder block. Hone it and run new rings.
3. 615 kit. You can roll the dice on a cruzinimage kit for $150. Then you will also have to pay $150-200 to have the cylinders bored. Very expensive option.
4. Clean everything back up and put your old pistons and rings in and run it as is. It ran good before, so it in theory cant get be any worse.
But it needs to have a proper honing done. It needs to have the proper cross hatch surface, or the rings will chatter and burn oil like crazy.

Get other opinions from the folks here on the board and ask a local machinist, (also if you can't find a machinist willing to do it, then that limits your options.) and weigh your options.

perhaps an opportunity

Piston kits with +0,50 mm, +1,00 mm and +3,00 mm ( 612 ccm kit )

www.scheuerlein-motorentechnik.de/motorr...z550-modelle/gpz550/

www.scheuerlein-motorentechnik.de/motorr...550-aufbohrsatz.html

Daftrusty wrote: That cylinder indeed does look bad. The only good news is that the worst rust area is in a spot that the rings will not touch. The piston travel does not reach the bottom 2ish inches of the bore. But the other areas of corrosion is pretty disconcerting. I would NOT put new rings in. It would be a total waste of money in that condition. The corrosion has actual eaten away low spots, so it won't damage the rings, but it will let combustion gasses by. Thus lowering compression, power and it will increase blow-by gasses and pressure into the crankcase which leads to blown seals.
Options....
1. Buy 1st oversize piston. They are no longer available from Kawasaki but a guy in Sweden has one with rings for $118. (not including the $50-$75 you will get charged to bore the cylinder out.) The most straight forward option, but you could buy an entire good used block and pistons for that. Maybe a used engine.
2. Good used cylinder block. Hone it and run new rings.
3. 615 kit. You can roll the dice on a cruzinimage kit for $150. Then you will also have to pay $150-200 to have the cylinders bored. Very expensive option.
4. Clean everything back up and put your old pistons and rings in and run it as is. It ran good before, so it in theory cant get be any worse.
But it needs to have a proper honing done. It needs to have the proper cross hatch surface, or the rings will chatter and burn oil like crazy.

Get other opinions from the folks here on the board and ask a local machinist, (also if you can't find a machinist willing to do it, then that limits your options.) and weigh your options.

So I'm liking options #1 & #4 the best, of course. So supposing I get a 1st oversized piston for #1 and get it bored out - would that cause any balance issues or are the weight differences so minor that it doesn't matter?

Regarding Option #4, which to be frank, I'm thinking is my most likely course of action; I was able to find a guy on eBay who was selling a set (2) of the oil rings only. He evidently only needed the compression rings. They were $4 so I decided to grab them. My question to you though is; does it make any sense to change the old oil rings with these new ones or does it not really make any difference? Or hell, is it a bad idea?

Re: the piston; I'm looking for a good, used, standard sized piston to replace that scored #1...but man, folks on eBay sure are proud of their used pistons. Well, that or they want a ton for shipping, which amounts to the same. I'm thinking I'll just plunk down for a NOS standard sized piston...I mean I can't imagine running a piston with the way that one looks is a good idea? Or am I over thinking it?

Lastly, you mention that it needs a good honing - granted I haven't wiped the bores since it my friend and I used a ball hone on them, but are you saying that it needs additional honing? Or wipe, oil, clean'er up and put her back together?

Scirocco wrote: perhaps an opportunity

Piston kits with +0,50 mm, +1,00 mm and +3,00 mm ( 612 ccm kit )

www.scheuerlein-motorentechnik.de/motorr...z550-modelle/gpz550/

www.scheuerlein-motorentechnik.de/motorr...550-aufbohrsatz.html

ergh, you and I have very different ideas of opportunities! haha!

No, but honestly, I sincerely appreciate the effort and thank you for linking those options.

No eBay APP ID and/or Cert ID defined in Kunena configurationNo eBay APP ID and/or Cert ID defined in Kunena configurationWould this work? I was thinking you could make an offer shipped. I've done it. Maybe take the bad sleeve out and put a good used one in and you would have your choice in pistons.
Steve

SWest wrote: Would this work? I was thinking you could make an offer shipped. I've done it. Maybe take the bad sleeve out and put a good used one in and you would have your choice in pistons.
Steve

I thought I had looked at all the barrels that were on eBay and was just thinking I'd be likely putting myself in the same boat. The ones that you can actually see the bores on seem to be kinda ugly, like mine. But that first one you linked to actually looks pretty good.

Darnit Steve...now ya got me on the fence again! I was alllllll ready to just locate another piston and put it back together...

Cost a lot less then you could spend it on other goodies. I like the idea of having a choice in parts. The sleeves press out so if your barrels are good, you have plenty of options.
I found these by clicking watch this item then on the dropdown list view similar items. I'll bet there's more.
Steve

SWest wrote: Cost a lot less then you could spend it on other goodies. I like the idea of having a choice in parts. The sleeves press out so if your barrels are good, you have plenty of options.
I found these by clicking watch this item then on the dropdown list view similar items. I'll bet there's more.
Steve

Steve - so can you get the sleeves from Kawasaki? Perhaps that's a cost effective alternative.

The cylinders Steve posted will work perfectly, but they are cosmetically different than the gpz cylinder block. The fins are rounded and not squared angles like the gpz cylinder head. Not a big deal, but if selling in the future, its a dead give away that something went wrong.

You can't buy sleeves from Kawasaki, but you can take the sleeves out of another 550 block and put it in yours. All you have to do is stick the cylinder block in the oven @ 450 degrees and bake it for 45 min. The sleeves will literally fall out at that point. But I don't advise trying it ( I have tried it multiple times) and when heating the good block and inserting the "new" sleeve, upon cooling the sleeves will get squeezed out of the block from cooling aluminum leaving the sleeves improperly seated in the cylinder block. This option is best left to a pro and it will cost more than a used engine would.

I would remove the scuffed piston from the engine, remove the rings, clean it up and try to gently smooth down the scuffs with fine sandpaper or a scotch bright pad. I don't think the scuffs are terminal and the piston will still be usable. Try it at least before dropping $$ on a NOS one and using it in the corroded bore.

You need to google "cylinder hone cross hatch" and research it some.
You have indeed honed the cylinders, but not in a way you can ever run pistons in them again. It has to have a 45ish degree crosshatch pattern and not concentric circles. The proper honing is for future lubrication of the cylinder. Done incorrectly, your pistons and rings will eat themselves in short order.

These are exactly the same questions and answers I had to research when I was trying to make a usable cylinder block and matching pistons.
I ended up finding a used cylinder block on ebay, honing it and using new rings.
But your results may vary.