Engine debris-What is it?

yup;)

I'm waiting for parts from Jeff and company and in the meantime I've been thinking, yeah dangerous, I know. Anyway I just have a hard time believing that all of that aluminum debris came from that head area. It just doesn't look like it would produce that much. The only item that ended up with more wear than what you've seen is the top idler between the cams. The rivet that holds it together had loosened up and allowed the hardened sleeve under the bearing to move around and this did a lot of further damage to the rivet. Other than that I've seen nothing. I took the clutch cover and "pressure plate" off to look for something there. It was clean.

Is there another place in the lower half of the engine that the chain could have been hitting that I can't see without further diassembly?

Thanks as always.

CTSZ1 wrote:

...I just have a hard time believing that all of that aluminum debris came from that head area.....Is there another place in the lower half of the engine that the chain could have been hitting that I can't see without further diassembly?

Thanks as always.

Well, if the head was the source of your debris issue, you'd be having major problems aside from the tensioner.

I'm assuming the cylinder is still on the crankcase, per the previous level of disassembly and lack of updated pix.

The largest single source of chewed aluminum in the pan in cases like this is the lower-front cam chain tunnel surface and the upper-front of the crankcase. When loose, that is the area where the cam chain slack is at its greatest, and as a result, when decelerating, the chain will slacken forward and begin to eat the forward surfaces.

Short of setting yourself up for a hone and ring job, the only way to inspect the area is with one of those neat little LED extension lights and a pretty small mirror on a stick.

I wouldn't worry about it. I've seen some pretty amazing trenches in that part of the cylinder/cases and yet still remain functional.

While the pan is off, before beginning re-assembly, get yourself a couple of cans of Blaster or WD-40, make up an extended nozzle out of straws and flush the area as well as possible.

When you put the motor together and get ready to fire it up, get 8 quarts of cheap oil and a couple of cheap filters. Run the motor easy for 20 minutes, maybe half an hour. Change oil and filter. Don't be surprised to see additional crap come out.

Put another 50 miles on it. It should be pretty clean, but there may be some residual crap. Go back to your usual oil and filter. You should be ready to go.

Appreciate the info Pterosaur, I'm more comfortable sewing her back up now. I did take wireman's advice and decided to re-ring and hone since I'm this far in, but I still haven't pulled the block. As soon as my order(s) come in from Z1 Enterprises (have changed and added things a couple of times, man they're great to work with) I'll zip her up and give everyone an update. Thanks for everyone's contributions.

You betcha.

While Wireman ain't about to put *Dear Blabby* out of her day job in advice to the lovelorn, he's actually a pretty dependable source on these motors - rings and a hone job can't hurt, and certainly can help.

Once you get her all zipped up, you'll be good for quite a while before having to think about that end of the motor again - enjoy...

Pterosaur wrote:

You betcha.

While Wireman ain't about to put *Dear Blabby* out of her day job in advice to the lovelorn, he's actually a pretty dependable source on these motors - rings and a hone job can't hurt, and certainly can help.

Once you get her all zipped up, you'll be good for quite a while before having to think about that end of the motor again - enjoy...

ah geez ,love ya too birdman:kiss: group hug everybody!

wireman wrote:

..ah geez ,love ya too birdman:kiss: group hug everybody!

See? 'Tole ya the quality of his advice drops off sharply the further he gets away from gas fumes... :whistle:

Post edited by: Pterosaur, at: 2006/07/14 21:09

CTSZ1 wrote:

Appreciate the info Pterosaur, I'm more comfortable sewing her back up now. I did take wireman's advice and decided to re-ring and hone since I'm this far in, but I still haven't pulled the block. As soon as my order(s) come in from Z1 Enterprises (have changed and added things a couple of times, man they're great to work with) I'll zip her up and give everyone an update. Thanks for everyone's contributions.

Your going to re-ring and hone plus replace all of the timing chain components?

If so I'd consider pulling the engine unless you think you can get all of the chips out with it in. I look at it as all that work and one lousy chip gets in the wrong place and all that $ is wasted plus more now. You know now would be a good time to check the oil pump for wear too. Little fine pieces of aluminum could have gotten everywhere, steel likes to get to the bottom but aluminum lapping on meshing parts can spell future failures as it is easier to follow the motion of the sloshing oil. These engines are tough but when your that deep into a rebuild why not be sure?

KZ_Rage wrote:

If so I'd consider pulling the engine unless you think you can get all of the chips out with it in...

Um, not to be contradictory or anything, but what good is "pulling the motor" gonna do if the object isn't to split the cases?

Once you split the cases, you walk face-first into additional issues of complexity and expense. If you just happen to have a factory race team and a truck full of spares backing you up, hey, have at it.

Having done the same job a fair number of times under exactly the same circumstances, I have yet to see "one lousy chip" ever become an issue, let alone take down a motor. The races, gears and bushings are all far harder than the odd aluminum chip, chew them up and spit them out on a regular basis while in the condition listed above, and the fact is that I've seen some pretty tired KZs run thousands of miles and year after year in that condition.

Matter of fact, it isn't uncommon for brand-spanky new engines from the factory to have an amazing amount of junk in the pan by the time break-in is reached, and nobody's ever the wiser until the first rebuild.

If CT does an adequate job of flushing the cases with the pan off, follows the cheap oil/filter change plan at 1/2 hour and fifty miles, it'll clean out just fine, run like a top and be back on the road weeks sooner and quite a bit cheaper than renting an electron microscope to track down molecular aluminum in a back-current in the oil pump.

Odd... you worry about flushing them out but then you say it isn't a problem... hmmmm, which is it?

Aluminum doesn't get "chewed up and spit out" it tends to lap under pressure. Do you want that to get in-between two surfaces that require a clearance tolerance? Not me. The bigger threat to long trouble free life is the larger micron stuff. You hope the filter gets it but it gets to ride a bit before that happens. Want to have it ride a while in the rings while if scores the walls for a while? Not me.

I think your "flush with cheap oil" procedure has been proved inadequate as the pan was still full of chips after he had drained it. Changing the oil is going to make you feel like you did something but the potential for debris in the engine causing a problem will still be there.

My statement of taking it out of the bike is so you can flush it better assembled if you are going the half-step method of assuring removal of the debris versus a complete tear down. Lots of folks were saying how lucky he was it didn't do any real damage but I didn't see where he had checked the cylinder walls yet.

Post edited by: KZ_Rage, at: 2006/07/14 23:53

KZ_Rage wrote:

Odd... you worry about flushing them out but then you say it isn't a problem... hmmmm, which is it?

Huh?

What are you talking about? Do you read the posted answers? Either you have problems reading, you don't read, or you can't understand what you do read. Which is it? Hmmmmm?

Aluminum doesn't get "chewed up and spit out" [

Oh, horse$hit.

You mean to tell me that if the cam chain is chewing aluminum, that it doesn't fall or get slung into the #2, #3 rods, the cam chain drive sprocket and every other mating surface in sight?

Whom are you kidding?

...it tends to lap under pressure.

Again, *what* are you talking about?

I'm pretty certain you've got a big library of magazines, but do you have you any practical knowledge gained by actually working on these motors?

Aluminum "lapping" is an abrasive process performed with and by an OXIDE of aluminum - a molecule - which you're gonna find is present in a motorcycle crankase in the PPM range and as an abrasive issue is way down the list of potential problems.

The form of aluminum found in crankcases is atomic or metallic aluminum - and since it is far more ductile than the steel parts it contacts, is far more likely to *metallize* - cake up at contact points due to pressure, temperature and dielectric varience - something it rarely ever does - and then most often in high performance - high temperature and pressure instances.

If what you're proposing had the *slightest* basis in everyday, normal usage fact, then every gear, bearing, race and bushing would have a nicely metallized aluminum coating at every mating surface instead of the aluminum winding up where it does: in suspension in the oil, and then precipitate IN THE PAN.

Do you want that to get in-between two surfaces that require a clearance tolerance? Not me. The bigger threat to long trouble free life is the larger micron stuff. You hope the filter gets it but it gets to ride a bit before that happens. Want to have it ride a while in the rings while if scores the walls for a while? Not me.

Oh this is rich.

Motors run every day in every circumstance with aluminum in suspension. And scads of other stuff. If it didn't, motors wouldn't wear out, but they do.

It's a fact. Get used to it.

I think your "flush with cheap oil" procedure has been proved inadequate as the pan was still full of chips after he had drained it.

"Proved"? By who? You? Hardly.

Your problem is obvious; you think too much and pull motors apart too not nearly enough. Here's a little secret for your hip pocket: short of NASA pulling up and dropping off a #15 clean room and a pile of eggheads to wipe and polish every part as your expert pinkies assemble it, it's gonna have some leftover crap in it. People a lot smarter and a lot more experienced than you have used that method for quite some time, and it's worked pretty well until now.

Given the alternatives, I'll stick with their experience.

Changing the oil is going to make you feel like you did something but the potential for debris in the engine causing a problem will still be there.

Oh, Puuuuuhlese.

The very agent of the motor's demise is MANUFACTURED INTO IT - it's called metal. If you cleaned the thing like a space probe, fer chrissakes, by the time the new rings seat, you ALREADY HAVE METAL IN SUSPENSION.

Think changing the oil doesn't have a bearing on that?

My statement of taking it out of the bike is so you can flush it better assembled if you are going the half-step method of assuring removal of the debris versus a complete tear down.

Oh yeah? And who's gonna help pull it from the frame? And what kind of rig are you going to mount that heavy bastard in so you can rotate and flush it about all three axes to accomplish this miracle of modern surfactant magic of yours? And who's bathtub are you gonna catch all these gallons of solvent in?

All great theory. Short on practicality.

The fact is, whether you agree with it or not, that these motors have been partially torn down, flushed to some acceptable degree and reassembled to run trouble free for YEARS - your theoretical positing makes for great barstool harangues, but doesn't get the bike back on the road one minute quicker or one dime cheaper - a recurring topic on this forum, if you haven't noticed...

Lots of folks were saying how lucky he was it didn't do any real damage but I didn't see where he had checked the cylinder walls yet.

And with a "Hiyo Silver!" you charge into the thread three weeks into the exchange on a white steed to correct all our mistakes and inform us that we're in danger of ignoring vitally important topics?

I'm impressed.

Post edited by: Pterosaur, at: 2006/07/15 03:18

Post edited by: Pterosaur, at: 2006/07/15 00:52