Oil and zddp question

i recently purchased a 1980 kz1000 1075kit andrews cams, ported head, kerker pipe and tuned carbs. I need help with what type of oil to use? And should i use zddp additive like the lucas? It shows 12xxx miles and smokes when i ride it hard?

Best Oils To Use In Your Bike (Just My Opinion)

Engine oil : The commercial grade oils are clearly superior to the mass market oils. For the best protection in your bike or car, use Shell Rotella Synthetic, available at Wal-Mart in blue containers . For the best petroleum oil you can buy, get Shell Rotella T, Mobil Delvac 1300, or Chevron Delo 400, available at any auto parts store. On the back of most oil cans is a circular stamp with the certification. Avoid oils that say "energy conserving" in the bottom half of the donut. These oils contain friction modifier additives that could cause clutch slipping over time. All XXw-20 and XXw-30 oils are energy conserving, and should not be used in your motorcycle. Don't buy any oil additives like STP or Slick-50. Here's several listings on all about oil justifying these conclusions.

The Recommended Synthetic Oils :

Shell Rotella Synthetic
5w-40 Delvac 1 Synthetic
5w-40 Mobil-1 SUV/Truck Synthetic
5w-40 AMSOil AMF Synthetic (pricey, but it’s your money)
10w-40 Golden Spectro Synthetic
10w-50 Motul 5100 Synthetic
10w-40 Mobil-1 Synthetic
15w-50 Mobil-1 MX4T Synthetic

The best synthetics are: (in no particular order)

Shell Rotella-T Synthetic 5w-40 (blue container, not white), gallon at Wal-Mart.
Mobil Delvac-1 5w-40 (grey container, not black), gallon at Petro stations, gallon at Farm and Fleet.
Mobil-1 SUV 5w-40, qt anywhere.
AMSOil AMF 10w-40 synthetic motorcycle oil. (again, pricey)
Golden Spectro Supreme, (no price).
Motul 5100 Ester, (no price).

Mobil-1 automotive oils all contain small amounts of moly - about 100 to 200 ppm. This can cause clutch slippage in some motorcycles. I've only heard of this being a problem in Honda Shadows.

For temperatures below -40, I strongly recommend either Mobil-1 0w-30 or the Canadian Shell 0w-40 Rotella. At these temperatures, your car is your life. Using cheap or incorrect oil is risking your life.

For temperatures below -55c, -65f, stay home. Really.

The Recommended Petroleum Oils

Chevron Delo 400 15w-40
Delvac 1300 15w-40
Shell Rotella 15w-40

The best petroleum oils are: (in no particular order)

Chevron Delo 400 15w-40 (blue container) gallon at any auto parts store, gallons at Costco.

Mobil Delvac 1300 15w-40 (black container) gallon at any auto parts store, gallons at Sam's Club.

Shell Rotella-T 15w-40 (white container) gallon at Wall-Mart or any auto parts store, gallons at Sam's Club.

If you live in another country, you'll have to do a bit of research to decide on an oil. Generally, any oil certified for use in a late model Volks wagon or Mercedes turbo diesel is a good choice. Another good idea is to go to a truck stop and ask the truckers about brands. Rotella is marketed all over the world, but in other countries it's called Rotella or Rimola or Helix Ultra, and the formulation may be a bit different, depending on local climate and preferences. It will likely also be a lot more expensive than it is here.

djm2475 wrote:

i recently purchased a 1980 kz1000 1075kit andrews cams, ported head, kerker pipe and tuned carbs. I need help with what type of oil to use? And should i use zddp additive like the lucas? It shows 12xxx miles and smokes when i ride it hard?

With the extra heat from the overbore engine, paying the $$$ for full synthetic like Amsoil or Rotella is probably justified. You do need the benefit of ZDDP, I think Rotella still has a decent amount of ZDDP but I don't know about Amsoil.

I hope this helps. We covered this subject on this thread.

kzrider.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&...ew&catid=2&id=352062

Here's a Blackstone lab take on the ZDDP thing and flat tappet engines just for info. I suspected all along the ZDDP scare was just that and they come to that conclusion.
tinyurl.com/274ffm2

The Blackstone Lab oil report was performed using one Chevy 350 engine. He mentions the “Scientific Method” but I don’t think demonstrating that Aeroshell W65 oil works ok in a regular automotive engine for a couple thousand miles proves much of anything. He states his engine is a “flat tappet” type which simply means it doesn’t have a roller cam, but the fact is that Chevy 350 V8 engines employ hydraulic lifters not solid lifters so any comparison between that style engine and a KZ engine is comparing apples to oranges. I really did not see any evidence in his report that indicates ZDDP does not offer protection to KZ type cams.

I’m more inclined to believe motorcycle cam manufacturers who have had damaged cams returned and have a vested interest in determining and eliminating the cause of the problems. Please don’t misunderstand; I’m not one who believes regular car oil will cause a KZ engine that is already broken in to instantly self destruct. However, based on the numerous articles and legitimate studies and comparisons performed by oil companies (such as the Amsoil study) I do believe oils containing adequate levels of ZDDP provide a level of protection to KZ engines that non-ZDDP oils lack. Ed

RonKZ650 wrote:

Here's a Blackstone lab take on the ZDDP thing and flat tappet engines just for info. I suspected all along the ZDDP scare was just that and they come to that conclusion.
tinyurl.com/274ffm2

There is so much evidence on ZDDP that I don't know how anybody would say it has no beneficial effects. This is no new fad, it's been in standard use for many decades.

ACTUAL LAB TEST INFO:

www.springerlink.com/content/x050438831528713/



Highlights:

1. Introduction
For many years, compounds such as zinc dialkyl-
dithiophosphates (ZDDP's) have been used as additives
in engine oil [1]. ZDDP decomposes on rubbing to form
a protective film, a so called tribo- or anti-wear film. The
mechanism of the tribo-film formation has been the
focus of several studies in recent years [2^4]. /////

In this paper, we report the chemistry and mechanism
of formation of anti-wear and thermally grown films
from ZDDP.
////
The width of the wear scars on the pin in fig. 2 were
then measured for different experiments (table 1). In #1
the width of the wear scars for pristine steel without
ZDDP increases quickly to > 500 m. If the pristine
steel is rubbed with ZDDP additive in the oil (#2), the
scar width is much lower even after 24 h (W200 m).
Precoating with a tribo-film (#3) offers very substantial
wear protection giving wear scar widths of < 300 m.
The thermal film precoating (#4) does not give as much
wear protection

but the fact is that Chevy 350 V8 engines employ hydraulic lifters not solid lifters so any comparison between that style engine and a KZ engine is comparing apples to oranges.

You're kidding, right?

If you had said that comparing flat tappet hydraulic lifters to roller lifters is like comparing apples to oranges, then I would agree with you. But the cam to lifter interface is exactly the same with hydraulic and solid flat tappet cams.

I'm expecting the flat tappet engine in my van with 210k miles on it to wipe out the cam due to lack of zddp any day now.

steell wrote:

but the fact is that Chevy 350 V8 engines employ hydraulic lifters not solid lifters so any comparison between that style engine and a KZ engine is comparing apples to oranges.

You're kidding, right?

If you had said that comparing flat tappet hydraulic lifters to roller lifters is like comparing apples to oranges, then I would agree with you. But the cam to lifter interface is exactly the same with hydraulic and solid flat tappet cams.

I'm expecting the flat tappet engine in my van with 210k miles on it to wipe out the cam due to lack of zddp any day now.

I disagree. Solid lifters and hydraulic lifters have different characteristics. This is one reason serious racers used solid lifters instead of hydraulic lifters prior to the availability of roller cams. Here's my point. While the cam to lifter interface is the same as you correctly state, the lifter to valve interface in engines using hydraulic lifters is not direct as in a KZ engine. The hydraulic lifter contains an oil charged plunger that acts upon the pushrod which then transfers the force to the rocker arm then to the valve. The plunger provides a bit of "give" even to the point where as the valve itself expands some of the oil is forced out from under the plunger. In contrast, in the KZ engine if things get tighter there is no give to compensate. The good news is your van engine (and my GMC Z71) will probably go another 200K miles without ZDDP unless your using solid lifters, a high lift cam, and heavy duty valve springs. Ed

Hydraulic Lifter

That cat gets annoying sometimes, so it's fun to stomp on one of his paws once in awhile. I've had cams chew up as soon as the motor was running. They scar instantly with rotational contact (an that's fancy words aint it) :woohoo: Without the film the cam and lifter scars, then chew away at each other until the lobe is gone. In steal's case it really doesn't matter how many miles, the tranny is going out soon anyway so.... MEOOWW!.

steell wrote:

I'm expecting the flat tappet engine in my van with 210k miles on it to wipe out the cam due to lack of zddp any day now.

In most cases, catastrophic lobe wipe happens in new rebuilds with new cams and stiff springs. If they make it through break in, the chances of survival increase a lot since the lobes are now worn into the lifter faces. Running oil without ZDDP in a broken in flat tappet engine might not cause a lobe wipe, but it will cause accelerated wear throughout the engine.

The mechanism by which ZDDP retards wear is well known: it provides a sacrificial layer on the metal which protects it (to some degree) in metal to metal contact during the first seconds after start up when the oil has drained down and is not protecting as it will once the engine pressure is up.

The thing about ZDDP in proper levels (about 1500 ppm) has been shown to reduce wear and as far as I know, has no adverse side effect except possibly reducing the life span of the cat converter but that is only if there is significant blow by at the rings. Even so, cat converters typically exceed 80k miles run life and cost a couple of hundred bucks to replace. Considering the cost of engine work, I'll take my oil with ZDDP.

650ed wrote:

steell wrote:

but the fact is that Chevy 350 V8 engines employ hydraulic lifters not solid lifters so any comparison between that style engine and a KZ engine is comparing apples to oranges.

You're kidding, right?

If you had said that comparing flat tappet hydraulic lifters to roller lifters is like comparing apples to oranges, then I would agree with you. But the cam to lifter interface is exactly the same with hydraulic and solid flat tappet cams.

I'm expecting the flat tappet engine in my van with 210k miles on it to wipe out the cam due to lack of zddp any day now.

I disagree. Solid lifters and hydraulic lifters have different characteristics. This is one reason serious racers used solid lifters instead of hydraulic lifters prior to the availability of roller cams. Here's my point. While the cam to lifter interface is the same as you correctly state, the lifter to valve interface in engines using hydraulic lifters is not direct as in a KZ engine. The hydraulic lifter contains an oil charged plunger that acts upon the pushrod which then transfers the force to the rocker arm then to the valve. The plunger provides a bit of "give" even to the point where as the valve itself expands some of the oil is forced out from under the plunger. In contrast, in the KZ engine if things get tighter there is no give to compensate. The good news is your van engine (and my GMC Z71) will probably go another 200K miles without ZDDP unless your using solid lifters, a high lift cam, and heavy duty valve springs. Ed

Hydraulic Lifter

Correct: asolid lifter is steel and basically has no give, save what occurs when the steel is deformed at the interface. Hydraulics do have a little bit of "give", and would not be as bad. I still wouldn't run oil without ZDDP in an engine with hyds, but that's just me.