Titanium Valves

kzz1p wrote:

HT8R wrote:

I think your street motor if you want it to live needs certain professional advice. Unless you plan riding your bike off road. I would still contact Jay. He has a proven record and an extensive following. No worries.

With titanium the valve train will last longer. The valve springs, cams, cam followers & the cam chain. The motor will run more stable and rev quicker.

so why havent you done it yet? :laugh:

if you want it to rev quicker spend your money on a 900 crank! :laugh:

PLUMMEN wrote:

if you want it to rev quicker spend your money on a 900 crank! :laugh:

I never said I would do it! I just asked the question. We needed something new to talk about. Just wanted to hear what others were thinking?

Nice to have a good discussion, once in a while.

imo ss valves are cheaper and will perform just a well on a street motor.
i mean it's cool to bench race and boast about what you have but unless you want a 14,000 rpm motor ( yuk yuk )
the cost of them just don't make it worth it.
you can do an awful lot with the money. like porting, cams, new carbs etc.

kzz1p wrote:

PLUMMEN wrote:

if you want it to rev quicker spend your money on a 900 crank! :laugh:

I never said I would do it! I just asked the question. We needed something new to talk about. Just wanted to hear what others were thinking?

Nice to have a good discussion, once in a while.

Some folks don't like using the board to pass on true information and discuss new ideas, some just chose to remember when these bikes were fast and call that good enough. They can get quite hostile when you start asking for facts to back up their claims.

That is certainly not true for everyone here, many good members still post up very useful information; I found a lot of colorful ideas from this board, but now most of my inspiration comes from other forums where the communities don't tolerate the "my way is right" mentality. Like granddaddy said "the empty wagon makes the most noise"

kawsakiman wrote:

imo ss valves are cheaper and will perform just a well on a street motor.
i mean it's cool to bench race and boast about what you have but unless you want a 14,000 rpm motor ( yuk yuk )
the cost of them just don't make it worth it.
you can do an awful lot with the money. like porting, cams, new carbs etc.

But other than the cost (as the OP asked), why not?

Isn't stainless much heavier than steel and Ti? Why are heavier valves better? What other property does stainless bring to the table?

What valve/port sizes are best (regardless of material, unless material makes a big difference in the optimal size) for a street motor?

If TI is so fragile/expensive how can many super-sport bikes afford to run them? (I know of good friend who owns a r6 with close to 30K miles on it that runs like a top, the guy who owns it will gladly post a vid or leak down tests to prove it's durability to that mileage, so please lets avoid the "cause it's new it's junk" theory)

Are there any super-sport bikes that use a valve size close to the optimal valve size for our KZ's (could a valve from a new bike be machined down to fit? many of us here know machinists who owe us favors maybe this is something that can be explored)


But other than exploration and thought what I expect to read is jokes and taunts... why try anyway right?

hardr0ck68 wrote:

kawsakiman wrote:

imo ss valves are cheaper and will perform just a well on a street motor.
i mean it's cool to bench race and boast about what you have but unless you want a 14,000 rpm motor ( yuk yuk )
the cost of them just don't make it worth it.
you can do an awful lot with the money. like porting, cams, new carbs etc.

But other than the cost (as the OP asked), why not?

Isn't stainless much heavier than steel and Ti? Why are heavier valves better? What other property does stainless bring to the table?

What valve/port sizes are best (regardless of material, unless material makes a big difference in the optimal size) for a street motor?

If TI is so fragile/expensive how can many super-sport bikes afford to run them? (I know of good friend who owns a r6 with close to 30K miles on it that runs like a top, the guy who owns it will gladly post a vid or leak down tests to prove it's durability to that mileage, so please lets avoid the "cause it's new it's junk" theory)

Are there any super-sport bikes that use a valve size close to the optimal valve size for our KZ's (could a valve from a new bike be machined down to fit? many of us here know machinists who owe us favors maybe this is something that can be explored)


But other than exploration and thought what I expect to read is jokes and taunts... why try anyway right?

Hardrock, let me try to answer your questions to the best of my ability.

The cost is the main disadvantage, but nitrided steel valves are more wear resistant IMO. It's your money, spend it how you like, but for performance gains, it is more effectively used elsewhere on an KZ engine.

Stainless steel's density is 8.03 g/cm3, carbon steel is 7.82 g/cm3, and titanium is 4.95 g/cm3. The stainless is marginally heavier than the carbon steel, and obviously the Ti is significantly lighter. Stainless' advantage comes into play when you run the engine hard and the combustion chamber temps rise. Carbon steel looses strength at high temperatures, and stainless holds up better at those temperatures. Stainless is also more corrosion resistant.

I can't help on valve or port sizes for a street motor.

As for the comparison to newer sport bikes, again I feel that its an apples to oranges. That R6 has three tiny intake valves in each cylinder versus one larger intake valve per cylinder in your KZ. The R6 is water cooled and it redlines at almost twice the rpm of your KZ. The sport bikes use the Ti valves for the ultimate high rpm performance. As I stated before the valve-train is not the limiting factor on a KZ1000 redline. If you try to turn a KZ motor to 17,000 rpm, then you can bet the bottom end will come apart. I personally don't feel that new is junk. I own a zx-10r with titanium intake valves, going strong at 25,000 miles. The truth is that Titanium is more ductile and malleable than a nitrided carbon steel valve. This means that the constant hammering of a valve closing against a hardened steel seat will deform the valve sealing surface. It just happens faster on the Ti valves.

As for the newer bikes with comparable valve sizes, can't think of anything off the top of my head. Most sport bikes are squeezing four or five valves into each cylinder. That means smaller valves. Not possible to machine smaller valves to fit. It would have to be from a two valve per cylinder bike.

Smith + Wesson uses titanium cylinders on their ultra lite revolver line to save weight and make them strong enough for .357 magnum. The stuff is a pain in the rear compared to steel. You have to be very careful cleaning the Ti cylinders because they scratch so easily.

The question was , is it worth it? cost wise I say no.
yes there are a lot of things that can be done to improve the rpm band of the motor before you want to consider light weight valves, but remember, it was in a street engine and a all out race motor

hardr0ck68 wrote:

kawsakiman wrote:

imo ss valves are cheaper and will perform just a well on a street motor.
i mean it's cool to bench race and boast about what you have but unless you want a 14,000 rpm motor ( yuk yuk )
the cost of them just don't make it worth it.
you can do an awful lot with the money. like porting, cams, new carbs etc.

But other than the cost (as the OP asked), why not?

Isn't stainless much heavier than steel and Ti? Why are heavier valves better? What other property does stainless bring to the table?

What valve/port sizes are best (regardless of material, unless material makes a big difference in the optimal size) for a street motor?

If TI is so fragile/expensive how can many super-sport bikes afford to run them? (I know of good friend who owns a r6 with close to 30K miles on it that runs like a top, the guy who owns it will gladly post a vid or leak down tests to prove it's durability to that mileage, so please lets avoid the "cause it's new it's junk" theory)

Are there any super-sport bikes that use a valve size close to the optimal valve size for our KZ's (could a valve from a new bike be machined down to fit? many of us here know machinists who owe us favors maybe this is something that can be explored)


But other than exploration and thought what I expect to read is jokes and taunts... why try anyway right?

Most newer bikes have smaller valve sizes, most have four valves.

With Ti the importent thing is the alloy mixture. There are many diffrent grades of Ti.

Anytime you can cut down the weight of a part(within reason) the reliability, longevity and performance increase. You are most likely losing 25 percent of your potenial through friction & Heat. I can't say what the weight of a Ti Z1 valve is, I don't know. I can say in a chevy the Ti is 40 percent lighter.

My question was is it worth the money? No way in my book. You can buy another motor for what a set of Ti valves cost.

PS- Why ask such a question? The power of these boards comes from experience & think-tanking. Take a long look at some of the careers, our members have. Take experience + education + common sense = Powerful wisdom & knowledge, plus hundreds of years of experience.
It's always good to look at things from a different angle or from someone else's shoes. Here you can ask one person or 17,000 members.........Remember! When a bench racer starts his story, the first thing he says is "This aint no Bullshit!"

Nice to have a good discussion, once in a while.[/quote]

Some folks don't like using the board to pass on true information and discuss new ideas, some just chose to remember when these bikes were fast and call that good enough. They can get quite hostile when you start asking for facts to back up their claims.

My friend you have hit the nail on the head. It has been like that since the first Z1 was made.

I learned years ago to reach out as far as I could around the world for info. This Know-It-All line of thinking has held back the motorcycle world. Look at most of the catalogs/web sites and there lack of info, car guys won't settle for that.

They want dyno tests & flow sheets to back up the manufacturers claims. Car guys won't spend a dime, without knowing what they are getting.

Motorcycle guys buy, then say look at what I got, now what do I do with it?

We have settled for less and that's what we get, is less.

Here's the deal. Titanium is soft compared to steel. If you wanted to make them last in a KZ, you need to use bronze seats. Steel seats beat the valve faces to death. The softer bronze is much easier on them. We make those seats for the shops setting these heads up with Ti valves.

If you have ever seen a Vortex ll or VHR aftermarket 2 valve head, they have bronze seats.

As Larry stated, Honda has a problem with the CRF250s and 450s beating the Ti valve faces out. We have kits that convert those models to stainless valves to the owners can just ride them instead of working on them.