Reinstalling Cams

Bike:
1981 KZ1000-M1 CSR J motor @ 1075cc and V&H hot street cams, biggest possible without shim under and head work - they miss the head by like 0.5-1mm.

Summary:
Motor was rebuilt in 07, put 3600 strong hard miles on it in 08 then overreved - now reassembling after recut valve seats and new valves due to overrev bent valves. (yes dyna limiter now installed and set at 8500rpm) :blush:

Issue:
I have the cams in the head, and the cam chain around them and in time. Putting on cam cap 2 (right hand side of front / exhaust cam), then moving to cam cap 1, and even putting all my weight onto the LH end of the cam to push the valve springs down so the cam can seat as much as possible, I feel like I am going to rip out the threads if i use the cam cap bolts to draw the cam down that last bit.

I tried once and the bolts got tight, i stopped and backed them out and sure enough they were pulling out a coil of about 1.5 threads in the cam cap bolt.

How does this work? At TDC 1-4 each cam has one valve fully depressed and another just starting to. I'm a big guy 6'1 and 210lbs, and with one side of the cam bolted 70% of the way to cam cap being flush, I can just barely get the other end of the cam pushed in enough to barely start the cam cap bolts. It looks like you use the caps to draw the cam down. If I do it I'll ruin the head i just know it.

My questions is this - is there any way to get the cam pressed all the way into its bearings so that you just lay the cam cap on and push its guides into the head and it goes down all the way flush so you could run the bolts in using your fingers until they stop then just barely snug them so as to avioud stripping out the head. Do i need two people or somthing?

I have a hard time explaing stuff, but i think you've all been there before, and I bet you know what i am talking about.

Please advise! THanks guys!

- Jason

new heavy valve springs suck!:laugh: is the tensioner removed?you could make yourself some long studs out of allthread to use to pull the caps down on there then replace with bolts one at a time once the caps are pulled down.

FZ fan, Just a wild thought, be sure if your' cams have them that end float lips are inserted in head and caps. G

I have heavy duty valve springs in my rebuild and yes they will be strong compared to the 30 year old OEM springs but by no means as your explaining....

"is the tensioner removed?"... Good question! :dry:

Are all the cam cap bearings seated correctly where one is binding or something?

And your positive you have the cam lobe orientations correct, right?

OMR

Face the facts ,,,,,,,
You started to pull the threads on 1 bolt right ?
At LEAST that 1 needs to be repaired (now NOT later)

When you put the cams back in ,try this ,,,

Set the cam in place ,,,,
Set BOTH cam caps in place ,,,,
Put in ALL 8 bolts ,,,,
Get them ALL started about 2 turns ,,,,
THEN turn each one just 1 turn until both caps touch down at the same time ,,,,
Then snug them ,,,,
Then toque them , gently and just once ,,,,

Make sure the cam DOES NOT TURN while you are doing this .

And everyone else is correct ,Just leave the tensioner off untill you have the cams in .

You can put a clamp on the camshaft, pressing it down into the bearings..you will need a BIG clamp to do so. I don't know where you can place it on the engine, but there must be a place for the other side of the clamp...

Also, if you strip the thread of your head, repair it with a "helicoil" or "V-coil" or something like that to repair the thread..

Good luck!

Ow and by the way, you said something about other cams?

Maybe the valvespring retainer is touching the valveguide/seal because of the big increase in lift.....?? :huh:

PLUMMEN wrote:

new heavy valve springs suck!:laugh: is the tensioner removed?you could make yourself some long studs out of allthread to use to pull the caps down on there then replace with bolts one at a time once the caps are pulled down.

Thanks for the quick replies everyone!

Plummen:
Yea they are APE heavy duty springs with only like 3300-3600 miles so they are wicked stiff. I routinely ran this motor to up against 10,000rpm which is what the builder said she was good for. The telltale on my electronic tach showed 13,600rpm when she kicked out of gear and bent the exhaust valves, and the pistons are totally fine.

The allthread sounds like a pretty good idea, I need to stop at Fastenal at lunch anyway.

Oh, yea the tensioner is in a ziplock on the bench and has been since the head came off last year. : )

gane wrote:

FZ fan, Just a wild thought, be sure if your' cams have them that end float lips are inserted in head and caps. G

I like that, FZ fan... : ) (Frank Zappa fan, my username is an album / song name from the late great Zappa) <-edit

Yup they are on the left side of the cams, and were seated ok. Thanks!

Old Man Rock wrote:

I have heavy duty valve springs in my rebuild and yes they will be strong compared to the 30 year old OEM springs but by no means as your explaining....

"is the tensioner removed?"... Good question! :dry:

Are all the cam cap bearings seated correctly where one is binding or something?

And your positive you have the cam lobe orientations correct, right?

OMR

OMR:

Bearing are all seated fine, and flush on both sides, and centered.

Now as far a cam lobe orientations - being that these are aftermarket cams with APE adjustable cam sprockets - when I took it apart last year, I rotated the motor to T 1-4, took about 40 digital pictures from both sides and many orientations and angles before pulling them.

I am putting them back exactly how they came out. I put them where i thought they should go, it looked right - then i took them out, and intentionally put them back in both a tooth ahead, then a tooth behind just to verify i had them right.

In my mind they are absolutely in the right spot. I have so many picures prior to disassembly, that one tooth off intentionally is so obviously wrong it's a no brainer.

Also, I tried - just to expiriment - putting just the exhaust cam in with the cam chain not around it and hung up out of the way. I couldn't get the cam caps to behave any better with the one cam only and no chain - no matter the orientation.

I think with enough force on the cams to get them to seat fully where you could just drop the cam caps on and they would be sittingon the head, and you could run the bolts in by hand until they stop, then just snug them - then it would be fine. But there just isn't enough room for another set of hands. I'm sure the original builder (sadly deceased since) had a good method and thats that no problem.

MDawnz1 wrote:

Face the facts ,,,,,,,
You started to pull the threads on 1 bolt right ?
At LEAST that 1 needs to be repaired (now NOT later)

When you put the cams back in ,try this ,,,

Set the cam in place ,,,,
Set BOTH cam caps in place ,,,,
Put in ALL 8 bolts ,,,,
Get them ALL started about 2 turns ,,,,
THEN turn each one just 1 turn until both caps touch down at the same time ,,,,
Then snug them ,,,,
Then toque them , gently and just once ,,,,

Make sure the cam DOES NOT TURN while you are doing this .

And everyone else is correct ,Just leave the tensioner off untill you have the cams in .

MDawnz:

I hear that. I am planning to head to Fastenal at lunch and get a Time-Sert kit for M6x1.0 pitch (got to figure out the depth) and I am going to steel thread *all 16 holes*.

I don't want to worry that the threads are going to fail and let the cam pop up and lunch my whole motor. I'd so rather do it right than worry about it. I ride hard no two ways about it. There is never a ride on any of my 4 bikes without at least a couple full throttle runs to redline.

Once I'm working with steel threads - your method will work perfectly I'm sure.

Thanks very much for the nudge. : )

Never put the cam cap bolts in dry.

Jay