Cylinder Studs, Gasket Sealers, and Cam Chain Questions

I removed my cylinder head this past weekend so that I can take it into a maching shop for repair. When I removed one of the cylinder head nuts, the stud came out with it. I'm planning to clamp the stud in a vice and hopefully remove the nut from the stud. However, how do I go about installing the stud back into the engine block? I have a Claimlers manual but I can't find anywhere were it tells how to intstall the studs. Also a search of this forumn didn't bring up much. I'm thinking maybe double nut the top of the stud and torque it back in? What is the torque spec? Should I Loctite it in? If it matters, this is one of the studs near the center of the block. It's not one of those on the outside with the oil passage.

Also, not to start a debate, but it seems everyone has a different idea on gasket sealers. I'll be installing a new base gasket, head gasket, and cover gasket (from the Z1E top end kit). My plan is to use Three-Bond 1104 for the base and cover gaskets, and to install the head gasket dry. Or, should I use copper spray for the head gasket? Or something else? I am in the process of thoroughly cleaning all mating surfaces.

Finally, I have replaced all cam guides, but I was planning to re-use my chain. When measuring the 21-pin chain length, do you measure to the center of the pins or the outside edge of the pins? If I measure to the outside of the pins my chain is approx 1/16" longer than spec. Should I go ahead & replace with a master link type chain? I really don't want to split the cases. The chain has around 25,ooo miles on it.

Thanks!

NormZ wrote:

I removed my cylinder head this past weekend so that I can take it into a maching shop for repair. When I removed one of the cylinder head nuts, the stud came out with it. I'm planning to clamp the stud in a vice and hopefully remove the nut from the stud. However, how do I go about installing the stud back into the engine block?

I think you can wrap tape around the middle and run it in with vise-grip pliers. I'd rather do that than jack on the threads with double nuts. You can apply permanent (red) loctite and it won't come out again.

NormZ wrote:

Also, not to start a debate, but it seems everyone has a different idea on gasket sealers. I'll be installing a new base gasket, head gasket, and cover gasket (from the Z1E top end kit). My plan is to use Three-Bond 1104 for the base and cover gaskets, and to install the head gasket dry. Or, should I use copper spray for the head gasket? Or something else? I am in the process of thoroughly cleaning all mating surfaces.

My opinion: three bond is super strong, go ahead and use a little of it on the base gasket since the chances are you'll never be taking it off again.

The valve cover: if you clean the surfaces, you don't need much sealer (maybe in the area of the rubber end plugs it always leaks around there). I use something pliable like the ultra high temp black RTV gasket sealer. It seals well but is easy to get off.

NormZ wrote:

Or, should I use copper spray for the head gasket? Or something else?

You shouldn't need it.

NormZ wrote:

Finally, I have replaced all cam guides, but I was planning to re-use my chain. When measuring the 21-pin chain length, do you measure to the center of the pins or the outside edge of the pins? If I measure to the outside of the pins my chain is approx 1/16" longer than spec. Should I go ahead & replace with a master link type chain? I really don't want to split the cases. The chain has around 25,ooo miles on it.

Thanks!

Don't know, that should be in the factory manual. If you don't have one, it's a must have.

After scraping my head surfaces and valve cover for what seemed like an eternity, I put no gasket sealer on my new gaskets. The only place I put sealer was on the cam plugs (as mentioned before, they leak without it). I am very happy with the results so far. Not one drop of oil leaked, and tons more power thanks to the new gaskets, cleaned head, carbs, electronic ignition and new coils

bountyhunter wrote:

I think you can wrap tape around the middle and run it in with vise-grip pliers. I'd rather do that than jack on the threads with double nuts. You can apply permanent (red) loctite and it won't come out again.

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Can you get enough torque with vice-grips? I would think that the studs need to be torqued at least slightly more than the nuts--otherwise what prevents them from coming out next time. Just the loctite?

I use black permatex number 2, yeah, the sticky stuff on the head side of the cam cover and the end plugs. That way the gasket stays in place if you have to remove it to check the valve clearances. I leave the other side dry. I have used copper spray gasket on head gaskets that I reused after only being on the engine a short time with good results. Otherwise I install them dry. I also use copper spray on the base gasket because it is a PITA to scrape the old gasket off, yeah, I keep my bikes a long time. I have never had a stud come out but red permatex is good stuff for installing them.......chris3

NormZ wrote:

bountyhunter wrote:

I think you can wrap tape around the middle and run it in with vise-grip pliers. I'd rather do that than jack on the threads with double nuts. You can apply permanent (red) loctite and it won't come out again.

Can you get enough torque with vice-grips?


I would think so. I've got some big ones. The head nuts only torque up to 30 foot-pounds.

Interesting question:

I would think that the studs need to be torqued at least slightly more than the nuts--otherwise what prevents them from coming out next time.

I am not sure? Have to think about it. Assuming the threads are reasonably clean, I would think nearly all of the torque force is directed downward not rotationally onto the stud. Not sure what the answer is on that.

Here is some info quoted from Z1E

APE 12 piece Heavy Duty Cylinder studs
APCS900K

Heavy duty replacement studs

Heat treated chrome moly - fits Kawasaki Z1 KZ900 KZ1000 KZ1100 2-valve engines

10mm Cylinder Stud Instructions
1. Long threaded end must be installed in the crankcase.
2.Note stock stud length location before removing. There are several different stud lengths.
3.After removal of stock studs, thoroughly clean holes with solvent and blow out.
4. Using two wrenches, lock up two 10mm X 1.25 nuts on the short thread end of stud. Dip long end in oil and installed in noted location, bottoming out, then using a torque wrench, torque to 12-15 foot pounds maximum.
5. Install head and following manufacturers torque pattern, torque head nuts to 32-35 foot pounds

Thanks for the info everyone. Tony, that is the procedure that I was looking for. Still confused at why the studs don't come out with the nuts every time though...with 12 ftlbs on the studs, 32 ftlbs on the nuts, and no loctite? Anyway, Z1 always seems to have good advice so I guess I'll follow it. I would try the vice-grips but I don't really trust my "feel" for proper torque w/o using a wrench.

I suppose it's really no big deal if the studs come out with the nuts.

Tony said Z1 said "torque to 12-15 foot pounds maximum.
5. Install head and following manufacturers torque pattern, torque head nuts to 32-35 foot pounds".
That makes no sense, surely the studs would come out every time?
Calling the Brit with the gorgeous ride.
Mr Saunders, whats your take on this please?

NormZ wrote:

Thanks for the info everyone. Tony, that is the procedure that I was looking for. Still confused at why the studs don't come out with the nuts every time though...with 12 ftlbs on the studs, 32 ftlbs on the nuts, and no loctite?

I think it's because there is little friction between the threads of the nut and stud. The rotational torque is directed down compressing the head, not twisting the stud.

If the stud does come out, it's probably because the threads of the stud rusted to the inside of the nut.

If we imagine the stud and nut had an ideal friction reducer on the surfaces of the threads (like super teflon)you could fully torque the head with ZERO rotational torque twisting the stud. All of the force would be in the up and down direction compressing the head to the cylinder, but the torque of the nut would still be the right amount.

BTW, that's why you need to clean the threads of the stud and also the surface the nut rides on to make them smooth. Drag on those will mean you don't get enough actual "down" torque when you torque the nut because the rotational drag will throw the whole thing off.

Interestingly enough, I'm trying to take my cylinder studs out and they are really in there. I can't budge the one I tried.
NormZ, How did your engine work turn out?

Tony wrote:

NormZ, How did your engine work turn out?

Thanks for asking. ITS FIXED!!! Well, mostly fixed. I got everything back together Wednesday night (two days ago). Went for a test ride at 10:30pm and rode to work yesterday & today. So far it's running well and NO OIL LEAKS!!!

I got the head welded, replaced all gaskets, valve seals, & cam chain guides. I opted not to grind the valves or replace the cam chain b/c I was trying to keep the cost down and there wasn't really any problems with them. Re-assembly seemed to take forever as I could only find an hour or two every couple days to work on it, but, I'm very happy with the result. It has actually seeped oil from various places the entire 4 years that I've had it. Now, it's finally CLEAN and BONE DRY!!!

My only problem now, which is hopefully an easy fix, is that one of my reed cover plates (still have the original smog system installed) cracked. Yes I was using an accurate low range in-lb torque wrench and it cracked before I got to 70 in-lbs, which was my target. Since this cover is just allows fresh air to enter the exhaust header, I went ahead and left it in place with the crack. Result: The bike runs great and doesn't backfire on decelleration as I feared it might. However, it does have a somewhat noisy exhaust sound. Not anything like a Harley--just noiser than normall. If I cover the crack in the cover plate with my hand it muffles the noise so I assume that is where the sound is coming from. As soon as the APE cover plates are available from Z1E (they're temporarily out of stock) I'll get those and finally get rid of all the emissions stuff...and hopefully the noise.

Tony, for the studs I followed your advice and didn't have any problems. I did decide to put a tiny drop of locktite on the bottom though as I don't intend to remove the studs aganytime soon. I'm wondering if your studs might be locktited in?