Z1 charging issues

Hello all.

So I have a 74 z1 with a simplified wiring harness, just the absolute basics, running a dyna S ignition. It had ran great for about 5 years, but over the past year I’ve had a gremlin in my charging system. At first the headlight started dimming in higher rpm range, but it still started and rode fine every time, so I chalked it up to a poor headlight ground and kept riding. Over the past year it has died on me a couple of times, i tried swapping the stator, regulator/rectifier, and battery independently in an attempt to solve the issue, I got the headlight to stop dimming under load, but it would still die on me after a few hundred miles. The battery would start at 12.6, drop to 11.8 with the key on, start fine, but the voltage wouldn’t go up at all at any rpm level. Same symptoms no matter which part was replaced. I’ve got a long ride coming up so I wanted to solve that once and for all, so last night I replaced the stator and regulator/rectifier with the z1 enterprise stator, regulator/rectifier combo (non lithium option) and I put a new battery in. Stator is putting out 60Vac, but still no voltage increase at any rpm range. I am pretty confident in my initial wiring job, as I had years without issue, and there are no issues with the wires that I can see, grounds LOOK good, but I’m assuming something must be grounding out somewhere to cause these issues. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Could the dyna ignition be the culprit? It starts first kick, doesn’t draw with the key off, doesn’t go above 11.something at any rpm range, and shits out after about 800-1000 miles or riding. Any input is appreciated, and sorry for the long post!

Are all three yellow wires putting out 60 VAC in any combination? I would check if there is a short in the stator. If there is no reading from one to the case the stator is good. I've had weak stators brand new. I'd be looking for 70 VAC at 4500 RPM. Also I went with a SH 755 R/R as Ed suggested. Never had luck with aftermarket units. Rick has a rotor that puts out 55% more power and that's my next move. $269.95   but it will turn a weak system into flame thrower.   Do some tests and get back to us. 
Steve
ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/New-Hot-Sho...wasaki-Rotor-41_200H

Ok, I have my coffee

Grab you meter
Meter on DC V
key on/engine running

red probe on positive battery post(metal part of the battery)
black probe on negative battery post
What is your voltage to the tenth decimal place? (ex 12.6v)

keeping your red probe on the positive battery terminal
move the black probe to each wire on the connector for the regulator/rectifier that is not one of the stator wires (stator wires are usually yellow).

Give me the voltage and color of each wire combination.
There may be up to 3 wires.
2 of the 3 voltages should be a steady 0.0V without any fluctuations.
let me know if the voltages are bouncing around.
One of the voltages should be close to battery voltage within a few tenths.

turn off your bike

Thank you for your replies, I just performed all those tests.

Steve, I rechecked my stator wires and I indeed getting around 70 Vac out of all three stator wires in all combinations at 4500rpm. Also, are you the same Steve West that runs the kz swap facebook group?

F64, I did not get the numbers you said that I should. Battery at rest is 12.56. Battery while idling is 12.14. Red probe to the positive battery terminal, and black probe to the black wire coming out of the R/R, key on engine running, I get 12.14. Red probe to the positive terminal, black probe to the brown wire coming from the R/R, I get .081. Red probe to positive battery terminal, black probe to the white wire coming from my R/R I get 9.56. I am stumped. This is a brand new R/R, and the third one I have tried in a row.

 

wrote:

Thank you for your replies, I just performed all those tests.

Steve, I rechecked my stator wires and I indeed getting around 70 Vac out of all three stator wires in all combinations at 4500rpm. Also, are you the same Steve West that runs the kz swap facebook group?

F64, I did not get the numbers you said that I should. Battery at rest is 12.56. Battery while idling is 12.14. Red probe to the positive battery terminal, and black probe to the black wire coming out of the R/R, key on engine running, I get 12.14. This is fine
Red probe to the positive terminal, black probe to the brown wire coming from the R/R, I get .081. This is fine
Red probe to positive battery terminal, black probe to the white wire coming from my R/R I get 9.56.This is not fine - you should have no more than 0.5v in this configuration. I believe the white is the main output from the R/R. I would check the connectors and fuse holder between the R/R and starter Sol/battery on the white wire. To have a volt drop this big there must be a significant poor connection
 I am stumped. This is a brand new R/R, and the third one I have tried in a row

PS:Apologies for butting in F64

 

wrote:

Thank you for your replies, I just performed all those tests.

Steve, I rechecked my stator wires and I indeed getting around 70 Vac out of all three stator wires in all combinations at 4500rpm. Also, are you the same Steve West that runs the kz swap facebook group?

F64, I did not get the numbers you said that I should. Battery at rest is 12.56. Battery while idling is 12.14. Red probe to the positive battery terminal, and black probe to the black wire coming out of the R/R, key on engine running, I get 12.14. Red probe to the positive terminal, black probe to the brown wire coming from the R/R, I get .081. Red probe to positive battery terminal, black probe to the white wire coming from my R/R I get 9.56. I am stumped. This is a brand new R/R, and the third one I have tried in a row.


I run the KZMarket on FB. The AC output from the stator looks good so a short shouldn't be a problem. One thing you should look at are the pin connectors on the white connector and the brown  connector. Check out the green and purple ones as well. The white wire (main charging) with red stripe goes behind the mounting plate and I've had problems there too. It seems to overheat and short out there. It's been a problem since new. With the SH775 all that is bypassed and it's a much better R/R and is easy on the stator. With this setup I get 13VDC at idle and a dependable 14.3V at speed. I'll take a pic this evening and post it here. 

Steve 

 

wrote:

wrote:

Thank you for your replies, I just performed all those tests.

Steve, I rechecked my stator wires and I indeed getting around 70 Vac out of all three stator wires in all combinations at 4500rpm. Also, are you the same Steve West that runs the kz swap facebook group?

F64, I did not get the numbers you said that I should. Battery at rest is 12.56. Battery while idling is 12.14. Red probe to the positive battery terminal, and black probe to the black wire coming out of the R/R, key on engine running, I get 12.14. Red probe to the positive terminal, black probe to the brown wire coming from the R/R, I get .081. Red probe to positive battery terminal, black probe to the white wire coming from my R/R I get 9.56. I am stumped. This is a brand new R/R, and the third one I have tried in a row.


I run the KZMarket on FB. The AC output from the stator looks good so a short shouldn't be a problem. One thing you should look at are the pin connectors on the white connector and the brown  connector. Check out the green and purple ones as well. The white wire (main charging) with red stripe goes behind the mounting plate and I've had problems there too. It seems to overheat and short out there. It's been a problem since new. With the SH775 all that is bypassed and it's a much better R/R and is easy on the stator. With this setup I get 13VDC at idle and a dependable 14.3V at speed. I'll take a pic this evening and post it here. 

Steve 


 

The voltage readings do indeed suggest the white wire is the problem (probably always was, this is the issues you get replacing components without    accurate diagnosis first)

Hehe, No worries Wookie.
I'm glad you jumped in.

I was busy anyway with crazy work.
My brain is fried.

Seems like you all are on the right path.
I'll sleep on it and comment tomorrow if work isn't too crazy.
And...I can't sleep.


Yeah, my guess is your white wire is not connected very well to the battery's positive terminal. It may be the original factory white wire has an issue.
If you are up to it, repeat the test for the white wire. But this time probe along that white wire with the black probe towards the battery(away from the reg/rec)
When the voltage drops to 0.0v you will have found your issue.
 I would be tempted to run a jumper wire from the white wire at the reg/rec to the positive batterry terminal to see if the battery voltage increases when the bike is running.


Ok..now I can go to sleep.
 

Thanks again for all the suggestions guys!

I had mentioned I am running a simplified wiring harness based on a diagram I found (and previously successfully ran) on this site years ago.

Just the basics: head light, tail light, on/off switch for lights, starter solenoid, dyna s ignition and coils, z1 enterprises stator and R/R, lowbrow customs sealed key switch turn to start.

I have done away with the stock connectors and soldered on single connectors for each wire.

-The yellow/green/orange stator wires connect directly to the 3 yellow R/R wires,
-The brown wire runs directly to the accessory post on the key switch (along with the coils, dyna s, and lights)
-The white wire connects directly to the positive battery terminal through a 30 amp fuse.
-The black wire goes directly to the negative battery post.

When I tested the white wire, I tested on both sides of the fuse and at the battery and got the same reading at each point. It seems to me like the brand new R/R isn’t putting out any power from the stator, which is puzzling to me as it’s the 3rd one I have tried. The first R/R was an old one I pulled from a pile of parts, I assumed it was bad. The second was a cheap one, similar but with no brown signal wire, I assumed it was bad. The third was not cheap(z1 enterprises), so now I’m assuming something weird is going on.

It really bothers me that I can’t make sense of the issue, and neither can anyone who has checked for themselves in person, which is why I have come here to consult the gurus. We have at least narrowed it down, I will do some more tests on the R/R and report back.

wrote:

Thanks again for all the suggestions guys!

I had mentioned I am running a simplified wiring harness based on a diagram I found (and previously successfully ran) on this site years ago.

Just the basics: head light, tail light, on/off switch for lights, starter solenoid, dyna s ignition and coils, z1 enterprises stator and R/R, lowbrow customs sealed key switch turn to start.

I have done away with the stock connectors and soldered on single connectors for each wire.

-The yellow/green/orange stator wires connect directly to the 3 yellow R/R wires,
-The brown wire runs directly to the accessory post on the key switch (along with the coils, dyna s, and lights)
-The white wire connects directly to the positive battery terminal through a 30 amp fuse.
-The black wire goes directly to the negative battery post.

When I tested the white wire, I tested on both sides of the fuse and at the battery and got the same reading at each point. It seems to me like the brand new R/R isn’t putting out any power from the stator, which is puzzling to me as it’s the 3rd one I have tried. This is not the case, the white wire is connected to the battery so if the battery voltage is higher than the RR output that is the reading you would have (think of voltage as pressure in the line). When you have a voltage difference greater than 0.5v along the length of a wire then there is a resistance of some description (poor connection, partially broken wire etc)
If you have connected the red voltmeter probe to the positive battery terminal and the black probe to the connector on the white wire where it joins the battery then the reading should be 0v. Any thing more suggests a poor connection between the battery terminal and the connector on the white wire (can you post a picture of this connection) or between the wire itself and the connector. If in any doubt I would suggest cutting of the current terminal and soldering a new ring terminal to the white wire
The first R/R was an old one I pulled from a pile of parts, I assumed it was bad. The second was a cheap one, similar but with no brown signal wire, I assumed it was bad. The third was not cheap(z1 enterprises), so now I’m assuming something weird is going on.When strange things happen it's nearly always a resistance fault !

It really bothers me that I can’t make sense of the issue, and neither can anyone who has checked for themselves in person, which is why I have come here to consult the gurus. We have at least narrowed it down, I will do some more tests on the R/R and report back.

The OEM glass 20A fuses had the fuseable link attached to the end caps with solder.  We've seen a few that had cracked solder joints because they run hot.  The fuse might test good with a meter but not pass any current to speak of.  Maybe try a new 20A fuse?

We ve updated all of our Z1's to use modern & much more robust blade fuses.  It's a simple update if one can crimp 5mm bullet connectors to the blade fuse holder leads.

Good Ridin'
slmjim & Z1BEBE

Seems to me you are using aftermarket components for something they weren't designed for and that's where your problem lies. The brown wire is the sensing wire that "triggers" the regulator into charging the battery whereas the SH775 doesn't have one and just meters the current going to the battery as the load changes. The Dyna takes a lot of power coupled with lighting taxes an already weak charging system. Back in the day I was running a Marshal 55w quartz.low beam and a 100w pencil beam that worked great out here but it taxed the rectifier to the point it melted the solder joints on the diodes. I replaced it with a GS 650 unit that is much larger than the stock one but little did I know it was taking it's toll on the wiring, regulator and battery. As the wiring overheated the resistance multiplied leaving less power going to the battery. The tip off was melted insulators and connectors. I wound up getting a sealed beam halogen headlight 35/55w and added a aftermarket regulator for just the battery and one for the lights. It kinda worked until I parked the bike in 98 until 2013 when I got it running again. I had bought a used Z1 regulator but it didn't work any better than what I already had. I bought a later model R/R from the Old Kaw Man but I was back to a weak charging system and slowly draining battery. I went through three stators and a Caltric R/R (Made in CHINA)   that fried my last stator. That's when I took Ed's advice and tried a used SH775 R/R and bought a used OEM stator. After making sure there wasn't any shorts in the stator I hooked it all up and now I have a working charging system but it could be better. Next will be a Rick's rotor and I should be able to run all the lights I want while still having my starter and accessories I use all the time.
Steve
Off, Headlight, Dyna on, etc.
. 

AT SPEED IT GOES UP TO 14.3 vdc