TOPIC:

650ed wrote: In an earlier posting you stated "........ knowing the use of pod filters is a far cry better than the stock air box......"

I don't know where you got that idea, but it is not factual, especially for a stock engine with CV carbs. If you put pods on it you will spend a fair amount of time and treasure trying to get them to work as well as the stock airbox with the stock air filter in place. Some folks have eventually been successful, but it is not usually a simple task, and there are often lingering performance issues such as the affect of rain and/or side wind.

Regarding the problem of needing to use the choke so much - if you have not done so already I recommend you test the carb holders for air leaks. If air is being drawn in through the carb holders it might explain your need to enrich the air/fuel mixture by using the choke. The effect of carb holder leaks can vary widely as the temperature of the cylinder head and/or carb holder changes. This is because the air leaks in between the mating surfaces through tiny cracks in the rubber, and as these cool or heat up the rubber on the carb holder mating surface may seal or not seal better against the cylinder head. In any event, this is worth checking because it is very easy to do, and if you find a leak it should be corrected.

Carb holders will eventually develop tiny cracks in the mating surfaces between the holders and the cylinder head that can cause them to leak at idle. These cracks cannot be seen with the carb holders in place. I suggest you try the following. Get the engine warmed up and temporarily set the idle as low as possible without killing the engine (lower than 900 rpm if possible). The lower the better because with the idle very low the slides are nearly shut and the vacuum inside the carb holders is at its highest. Then spray carb cleaner around the carb holders, especially where they mate with the cylinder head and where the carbs attach to them. Carb cleaner works best for this test as it doesn't leave an oily mess with WD40 or evaporate so quickly that it is not drawn into the leaks as can happen with propane or starting fluid (ether). If the engine dies or reacts to the carb cleaner, you need to replace the carb holders. Carb holder leak related problems are noticeable at idle but generally don't have much impact when riding because the throttle is open. If you find you need to replace the carb holders soak the screws with Kroil for a couple days before attempting to remove them, and use JIS standard, NOT Phillips, screwdriver bits, and this will greatly improve the odds that you will not break or strip a carb holder fastener as so many have done. Let me know if you need info on JIS bits, I have a good link for making your own at no cost. Ed

OK,
I'm going to recant my pod filter statement of being better than a stock air box. Your right about the stock box being better for a stock engine. I'm more likely to keep the stock box than not.

I just did a leak test on the carb holders. Engine warm and idling. No leak detected. No change in low 700-800 rpm idle. Throttle response however is a little sluggish.

Today upon cold start this time #4 cylinder was not getting as hot as the other three. Meaning the problem has moved from #2 to #4. Even #2 was a little slow to start heating up but soon matched the other two. This isn't the first time I noticed this. I suspected it at least once or twice before. Normally it's been #2 running cold till the engine warms up on choke at high idle. Once it starts getting warm the otherwise cold cylinder starts getting hot and the engine starts running fine. (on all four cylinders)
I actually wouldn't have been surprised to have found a cracked carb holder leak. Getting these carbs in and out from between rather stiff holders and air box hoses hasn't exactly been an easy task. Leak or not they do need to be replaced. I did order new air box hoses but not the holders. I blew this weeks budget on a clutch kit, plates, cable, the air box hoses needles and seats plus a few other parts. But what the hell ... I'll order sum tomorrow.
So ... I still think its something to do with the carbs. They're likely running lean on fuel at least during start up.

I'm not trying or meaning to sound like I'm being hard headed about this. I'm listening to what yall are telling me and trying to eliminate one thing at a time. I'm just not convinced I've eliminated the carbs as being the culprit yet.

Robert

Have you checked the IC igniter? If it has a short is can cause issues with intermittent fires, which makes the bike feel like it is running out of fuel. On my 750 the connection to the pulsing coils had become loose. It fired up and ran great, but would bog and blubber when riding.

Guys , I couldnt stand it anymore so I had to register on this site to reply. Go to the Factory Pro ( make carb jet Kits ) web page they have the best CV carb tuning info you will find anywhere. I read it at least 10 times until it made sense and it works. I think I have seen other people refer to this info but couldnt find it. Now what I really wanted to talk about was the use of pod filters. I have been using them for 15 years on 2 different bikes a 82 KZ1000J with a 1075 cc Weisco pistons and Kerker header. and a 1981 GPZ1100 now an 1170 also with weisco pistons and kerker pipe. Both have BS34 carbs. The fuel injection on the GPZ was junke even when new thats why the changed to carbs.
It will take some patience to get there but I am here to tell you it can be done. I have also ran the GPZ with Mikuni RS36 flat slide carbs and it is crazy fast with them on but not easy to live with. I use the APE pod filters as they are the same as K&N but cost less than half price. Be sure to use oil on them yes I use the K&N oil but be sure to blow off the excess. One more thing is when I bought my Dyna coils from Z1 they told me I needed the 2.2 ohm grey ones better recheck that. Wish Dyna had some more info on there page.

I suggest checking the spark cable ends. They can corrode and cause this kind of problem. Cut 1/4" off each end, put them back together and see what happens.
Steve

dapro ... Welcome to KRZ and thank you for joining us on this thread. I could use all the knowledgeable help I can get on this. I'll go to the Factory Pro site and see what they have to say about tuning these carbs.

Thanks again.
Robert

EDIT ... OK, I just read Factory Pro's write up on tuning these carbs. Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for an easy way out. I'll do what I have to in order to get this bike running right. That said ... their approach sounds like a lengthy step by step process and an awful lot of trial and error testing. It would take days to do everything the way they say to. Test run after test run in order to get each component of the carbs working in unison with each other. No doubt I can see where doing so could maximize the carbs and ultimately the engines potential at all rpm levels but again ... it's an awful lot of work and trial and error testing.

I'm working on a stock engine with stock carbs. I don't understand how any of the jets could be the wrong sizes? I can assure you non of them have been changed. This bike had always run perfectly till it set up for 12 years. I could understand what few wearable parts these carbs have needing to be replaced at some point. But not the essentially non wearable jets. Am I missing something here?

As for the use of pod filters ... anybody who's running an engine other than stock like yours and looking to get all the performance they can including inducing more air into it, then pods would be a viable option. They're just not necessary on a weekend cruiser. But yes, I did consider putting some on my bike. Why? To be perfectly honest ... simply for their look. I have no need for whatever performance value they may have. Can't believe I actually just said that. Gittin old sux. Lol.

swest wrote: I suggest checking the spark cable ends. They can corrode and cause this kind of problem. Cut 1/4" off each end, put them back together and see what happens.
Steve

When I bought the new Dyna coils from Z1, I also bought some of there plug wires. (7mm copper core)

If not already done, would test ride with the fuel cap ajar (cap is loosened and not snapped down) to determine whether or not inadequate fuel tank venting might be causing fuel starvation.
It's a quick and easy way to check for adequate fuel tank venting.

Sometimes the fuel starvation isn't noticed initially, but becomes noticeable while riding as the fuel level inside the float bowl decreases without being properly replenished, such as when under power at higher road speeds.

When stopped or idling, the float bowl may refill, which allows seemingly normal running until the inadequate venting again results in a too low fuel level inside the float bowl.

Inadequate fuel tank venting may result in the sensation of "running out of gas," which actually is happening as the fuel level inside the float bowls isn't being adequately replenished.

Good Fortune!

Other possible causes for fuel starvation include:

Blockage of the petcock filter screen inside the fuel tank where crud has obstructed the filter;

Dirt inside the petcock that's preventing normal fuel flow;

Kinked or obstructed fuel line;

Blocked or kinked vent hose from the carb vent nipples.

Good Fortune!

Patton wrote: If not already done, would test ride with the fuel cap ajar (cap is loosened and not snapped down) to determine whether or not inadequate fuel tank venting might be causing fuel starvation.
It's a quick and easy way to check for adequate fuel tank venting.

Sometimes the fuel starvation isn't noticed initially, but becomes noticeable while riding as the fuel level inside the float bowl decreases without being properly replenished, such as when under power at higher road speeds.

When stopped or idling, the float bowl may refill, which allows seemingly normal running until the inadequate venting again results in a too low fuel level inside the float bowl.

Inadequate fuel tank venting may result in the sensation of "running out of gas," which actually is happening as the fuel level inside the float bowls isn't being adequately replenished.

Good Fortune!

I'll check the fuel tank venting but it actually has the opposite problem than what you described. It runs fine going down the road at all throttle positions.

Thanks for the venting tip.
Robert

Patton wrote: Other possible causes for fuel starvation include:

Blockage of the petcock filter screen inside the fuel tank where crud has obstructed the filter;

Dirt inside the petcock that's preventing normal fuel flow;

Kinked or obstructed fuel line;

Blocked or kinked vent hose from the carb vent nipples.

Good Fortune!

Petcock runs ample fuel in all positions. On/prime/res
Installed new fuel line w/filter. Not kinked.
No vent nipples. Only drains.

Thanks for the suggestions.
Robert

Sometimes it's something stupid like faulty plugs. Pics?
Steve

swest wrote: Sometimes it's something stupid like faulty plugs. Pics?
Steve

I put new NGK plugs in it the same time I installed the new coils. Your probably right about it being something stupid.

Have camera, will shoot. What would you like to see pix of? I'm waiting on my order from Z1 to get here before I start taking the carbs or anything else apart, so I don't have much as far as pix to offer right now.

Just called Z1 to check on my order. Although they may have great customer service, they do seem to have trouble getting parts from some of their venders. Or so I'm told. Apparently it'll be into next week before they'll have everything I ordered in stock. I may tell them to ship what they have which would include the carb needles, seats and gaskets. Their supposed to check on availability of some of my other parts and call me back later this afternoon.

So ... Please hold for the next available parts. Lol.

Thanks everybody.
Robert

Oh, forgot to tell you today's cold start test. Did something a little different. With the bike on the center stand I rocked it back and forth fairly hard about half a dozen times. My intention was to bounce the floats a little in hopes the carbs would get a little more fuel in them. Then I started it on choke. Feathering the choke I didn't let it rev up very high like it usually does. To my surprise it was running on all 4 cylinders. (Per feeling the pipes till they got too hot to touch) So ... the jarring the center stand created while rocking the bike and or the bouncing the floats seems to have helped. I do not think the floats are sticking. I think they're just set too high.

Update on my order from Z1. They're one short on my clutch plates and won't have carb holders for at least a week. Decided to go ahead and buy the floats too. Nope. No floats either. Had to ordered them elsewhere. So now that I've ordered parts form all over the country, I should have everything next week.
Please continue holding. Lol.