Another charging system question

hey guys
my bike is not charging the battery. I checked the alternator with my digital volt meter, and I am getting a reading when the dial is set to the V~ setting, 200 range. is this the correct setting? it is the only one I can get a reading on. The reading does fall into the ranges listed in my manual.

Also, I get a reading that is 3 times what I get at the alternator when I check between the positive wire and negative wire coming out of the regulator/rectifier. I assume that the regulator rectifier is not working?

It has been a while since I brushed up on my voltmeter skills, so any help would be appreciated. thanks

Thanks


Jason

Yes it should be the right meter setting.

Check this out, it helped me and is easy to follow. Make sure your battery is fully charged.

Electrosport Fault Finding Diagram in our Database

Post edited by: OKC_Kent, at: 2006/09/20 20:09

OK, It's been a few weeks since I had a chance to look at the bike (too much nice weather, wanted to ride the other bikes!). Finally got back into looking at the charging system on my bike. Started working my way through the flow chart provided by Kent (see prior post).

Here's what I have so far:

My bike does in fact have a permanent magnent charging system (duh...)

I am not meeting the minimum 13.5V at the battery at idle (got 12.2 or so)

Checked the voltage between the battery + and the red/white wire out of the reg/rectifier, came in at .15 volts, so I am under the .2 required by the flow chart. Moved on.

I checked the voltage between the negative battery post and the black/gold wire out of the reg/rectifier. I am getting .29V at best, need .2v or lower. Connected a jumper wire directly to the battery, rechecked: .29V again. Cleaned all contacts, checked continuity, etc. STILL .29V.

The only thing that I can see that I am doing differently with my volt meter and the one they are suggesting to use in the flow chart is that my dc voltage setting only goes to 9V, not 20 or 50V like the one they are using.

Could this be the cause of my voltage reading problems?

If not, does anyone have any clue how to help me? I think I am slowly going insane on this one! Thanks in advance guys!

Geesh, this is a confusing thread... maybe I can help some (maybe I will confuse things hehe)

The multimeter has a Volts DC set of scales and a Volts AC set of scales. The scale size must be enough to accomodate the voltage you are attempting to measure. What I mean is that if you have 500 VDC and the meter is on 1x scale, it can't measure voltage correctly (figures chosen as an example and not reality).

OK, first, the battery. I know you don't suspect the battery is bad; probably a fairly new battery. Buy a hydrometer... this is a small eye dropper looking deal with color balls. You draw up some battery fluid from each cell and note how many balls float. There is a description of the cell condition relative to the number of the color balls on the packaging. Don't waste your time trying to fix a charging problem when you have a dead battery cell. If the battery checks out, charge it using a trickle charger.

Next step... put your multimeter in VDC scale... x10 will be fine. If the gizmo is a digital meter, you don't have to worry about reading the value correctly. In any case, put the black lead between the NEG battery terminal and battery case and the red lead between the POS battery terminal and case. Start the bike. At idle you should read about ~ 12.5 VDC and then rev bike to 4K rpm. You should read about ~ 14.5 VDC.

If you read MORE than 14.5 VDC, the reg/rec is shot. Replace it. If you read less, then the reg/rec MAY be shot but you may also have an alternator problem. I suggest at this point, you check the alternator output.

Your alternator puts out alternating current (AC) so VAC should be chosen to measure voltage output of the alternator. You can measure voltage by finding the connector that comes from the alternator and connects to the regulator/rectifier. Start the bike and unplug the connector. The bike will run OK on battery alone during the test. I am not sure which type alternator (2 wire or 3 wire) but I suspect you can put your probes from the meter on any two of the three possible wires and measure AC voltage. Make sure your scale will accomodate at least 50 VAC. I am not sure how much AC your bike SHOULD put out... you will need a manual to determine this but many of the 1000s put out 50 VAC as measured between two of the three AC wires off the alternator. If you measure LESS, then depending on which type system you have, you may have a bad alternator or a bad stator OR rotor. A Kaw service manual will list resistance checks measuring the resistance between windings and between windings and ground. These tests indicate which component needs to be replaced.

wiredgeorge,
Thanks for the input. I have a manual and have already performed the alternator test, and the charging test at the battery.

My alternator is a 3 phase unit with 3 yellow wires coming out of it. at 4000 rpm I am getting about 60V AC from any of the wires when my digital meter is set to the 200V AC range.

with the bike idling, I am getting about 12.2V DC at the battery, and at 4000 rpm, I am getting about 12.4V DC, with the volt meter set to the 9.5V DC scale.

I have placed a regulator/rectifier on the bike that I know works (it's off of a running kawasaki) and taken all of these measurements. Even with the good r/r, I am still not getting enough juice to the battery.

Does anyone know the answer to the following question:
If I disconnect the r/r from the wiring harness (ie, only have it connected to the alternator, nothing else) should I get 12.5-14.5 volts DC between the white/red lead and the black/yellow leads?

In my mind, the answer is yes.

Sorry this post got so long everyone. Thanks for the help!

hey Jason,check your fuse box for a couple diode blocks,i replaced the stator reg/rec,battery,on my bike a while back and had the same problem,i had insulation break down w/ the stator so that's why i changed it,stator was still making power but it was going to ground,sounds weird but it happened,so w/ that said i was still getting now power at the battery,replaced reg/rec,still didn't solve the problem ,so i dissected the wiring harness only to find 2 diode blocks in the fuse box that are tied into the charging system,bad diode in one of the blocks,replaced and the problem was fixed.You can look up the topic,the charging system gremlin is still w/ me under electrical and get some good info.hope this helps.

First thing that jumps out is reading over 12 VDC when you have the scale of the meter at 9.6 VDC. Put the scale to 20VDC or 50VDC or something like that and recheck. How do you expect to read over 9.6 VDC?

Next, if your 3 phase alternator is kicking out 60 VAC on each leg, then you are good to go as far as that part of the charging system goes. The problem lies between the connector where the alternator plugs into the reg/rec and the battery. You feel the reg/rec is in good condition but I wouldn't be quite so sure...

First thing I would do is clean the connector where the alternator joins the reg/rec. I would use spray contact cleaner and some dielectic grease. Next, I would do the same with the WHITE or WHITE/RED wire connection where it tees to the BATTERY and MAIN FUSE. If those connections are clean and solid, then the problem most definitely is with the regulator/rectifier.

The unit MAY be OK and you may have a wiring problem. Follow the BLACK or BLACK/YELLOW wire out. This is a GROUND wire and unplug it or disconnect it and reground it positively to the frame or engine where there is no paint in the way of a good ground. CLEAN this connector good. Next, unplug the BROWN wire. This is your feedback wire that tells your reg/rec what voltage to make. On the side coming out of the wiring harness (NOT THE REG/REC), start the engine and measure the voltage. This is just switched voltage and should be the same as the battery voltage... ~12.5 VDC or so at idle. If the voltage is significantly LESS, then the problem with the reg/rec is that it isn't getting the right voltage info. There are OTHER brown wires in the area... like the one going to your turn signal flasher. Check the voltage there and if you have a tad over 12VDC, use that brown wire to connect to your reg/rec till you can figure out why the other wire isn't showing the voltage it should. Recheck voltage at the battery at idle and at 4K rpm. If you DO have the proper voltage on your brown wire and the black/yellow (or black) wire is grounded good, I would say that your regulator/rectifier are NO GOOD after going through this exercise by process of elimination.

jason8887 wrote:

My alternator is a 3 phase unit with 3 yellow wires coming out of it. at 4000 rpm I am getting about 60V AC from any of the wires when my digital meter is set to the 200V AC range.

That sounds good. Where are you measuring the AC? Your symptoms sound like the three yellow wires are not making good contact to the reg/rec.

jason8887 wrote:

with the bike idling, I am getting about 12.2V DC at the battery, and at 4000 rpm, I am getting about 12.4V DC, with the volt meter set to the 9.5V DC scale.

This means you definitely are not getting output from the charging system. (The slight rise in voltage at 4000 rpm is because the ignition uses less power at higher rpms, so the battery voltage doesn't get pulled down as far as at idle.)

jason8887 wrote:

I have placed a regulator/rectifier on the bike that I know works (it's off of a running kawasaki) and taken all of these measurements. Even with the good r/r, I am still not getting enough juice to the battery.

If the reg/rec is good, then it has to be wiring. As geerbanger mentioned, there could be something else shorting out, but I don't see any diode blocks in your diagram that would affect the charging system. Basically all you have in the path to the battery is alternator, reg/rec, and the wires (which do go through the connection at the starter solenoid). The charging system doesn't even go through a fuse before getting to the battery.

jason8887 wrote:

Does anyone know the answer to the following question:
If I disconnect the r/r from the wiring harness (ie, only have it connected to the alternator, nothing else) should I get 12.5-14.5 volts DC between the white/red lead and the black/yellow leads?

If the reg/rec is disconnected from the bike but the 3 yellows are still connected, (and the bike is running), you will get a high DC voltage reading on the WHT/RED-to-BLK/YEL wires. That's because the brown wire needs to be connected to control the output voltage. The brown wire gets switched to the battery-positive through the ignition switch.

Post edited by: loudhvx, at: 2006/10/04 10:59

Post edited by: loudhvx, at: 2006/10/04 11:01

wiredgeorge wrote:

First thing I would do is clean the connector where the alternator joins the reg/rec. I would use spray contact cleaner and some dielectic grease. Next, I would do the same with the WHITE or WHITE/RED wire connection where it tees to the BATTERY and MAIN FUSE. If those connections are clean and solid, then the problem most definitely is with the regulator/rectifier.

The connector George mentions here is what failed on my bike. It was so dirty it got very hot and was melted in spots. I cut it out and rewired this, as cleaning was pointless. Charging system was perfect after that change. Good luck to you.

Wow, awesome feedback guys!

okay, I will try to hit the high points and answer some suggestions:

Geerbanger,
Thanks for the suggestions on the diods. I checked my wiring diagram, doesn't appear to be any, but will check tomorrow when I get more time. Thanks for that tip!

Wired,
I had the same reservations about the scale on my meter not reading high enough to get a good reading. I believe it will read high enough because I have checked other charging systems and gotten a reading of >14VDc with it.

I have cleaned all of the connections a few times now, and even added a ground jumper back to the battery, so I do feel I have a good connection. Kudos on pointing out the obvious though, it's the obvious that's wrong far too many times.

You bring up a very intriguing point about the brown wire voltage though: I have checked my positive power at a few other points on my wiring harness (mostly coil leads) and found that I am not getting full battery voltage at these points (>12VDC), so I am very excited taht you brought that up as a suggestion! Seems very reasonable that this could be my problem!

Loud,
I have checked at every connection between the alternator and the r/r, including both sides of the plug, but I appreciate the suggestion.

It is very interesting that you point out that I will get a high dc voltage reading between the black and red/white wires when the brown wire is disconnected. I was just checking that tonight, and my volt meter flashes 15Vdc for a very brief second, then reads 1, like an ohm reading when you are not touching a connecting wire.

I believe that this is telling me that my VDC is too high for my scale. Also, with the brown wire hooked up, and no othe wiring harness wires hooked up, I get a reading of 0 (alternator wires and brown wire hooked up) between the black/yellow and red/white.


So, to sum up, I think Wired is definately on to something with the suggestion about DC voltage on the brown wire at the r/r, and Loud's point of the voltage being high if the brown wire is not connected is making me feel very good that my problem is in my hot wire to this particular circuit!

Man, now I'm not going to be able to sleep tonight cuz i'm so excited about checking this out tomorrow!

You guys rock, thanks for the help! I'll keep you posted!!

Riding cold in Iowa~
Jason

If your meter can't read above 15vDC, then you need to put it on a higher scale or get a new meter.

Whether the brown wire is disconnected or connected to a 12v source, the reg/rec output (RED/WHT wire to BLK wire) should be very high and you want to be sure it's high and not 0 or 1 volt.

I think the meter needs to be replaced. The 9.6VDC scale topping out values doesn't sound right. Never heard of a meter with this as the top DC scale range. Check out the Harbor Freight web site. They sell a cheap digital multimeter for under $10 generally.