Clear Coat Conversation or PM's with PT

A few weeks ago I posted a thread about clear coat. During the thread Pterosaur mentioned an epoxy clear coat called PJ1. Since he said it had good gas resistance, I thought I'd give it a try. I'd previously used a rattle can clear coat, but was really worried about gas ruining it. After I found where to get it I sent PT a Private Message which started a conversation where he lead me through doing a much better job, on my tank w/his help. Rather than try to summarize everything I'm copying an edited version of our messages.
So, here we go:)

Me:
Hey PT, I found that PJ1 clear, anything in particular I need to know about applying it or are the instructions you gave me sufficient? Thanks again for the advice

Pterosaur
Aha. Now you want to know about *SHOOTING*, eh?
$25 for the first hunnert words and $5/per hunnert thereafter!
You think I was wordy on just figuring how to sand clear it turned out you don't need to sand after all? Sheee-it.
...Okay, the short version: get an extra can or two, and get something to practice on that is somewhat analagous shape-wise - best yet, go to a bone yard and see if you can pick up a cheap tank of any type - plastic dirt bike, whatever - and use it to practice on.
Practice mainly three things - getting LOOSE - I wasn't kidding about having a beer; the best painters I've ever known were raging drunks - and developing a smooth stroke at a proper distance and nozzle orientation - which varioes by the piece and the section; top, side, around the filler neck, etc., and WATCHING the clear go on - too wet, too dry - develop a sense.
For all the science involved in doing paint jobs, the application is pretty much all *art*. It's a bit much to expect developing an *instinct* on one job, but if you do a practice shoot and develop the most basic feel, odds are you'll do better than you expected you might.
Shoot your stuff as wet as you dare - then just an RCH wetter - there's a point where surface tension allows you to take it just that silly milliliter further.
When each coat looks good - walk away - most paint jobs that run all over the floor happen because of the "...just ooooone more shot..." syndrome. Let each coat tack a good 10 minutes, depending on temp - which is why I said 60 is about right.
Three - four coats should be about right.
When you're finished, take it inside and let it set for 6-8 hours or overnight - then giver her some sun, rotating every so often for even heating.
Be patient, and let it set good.
Then enjoy the job.

Me:
...Well I didn't actually say I didn't need to sand. The pebbly texture is gone but it's a looooong way to go to not need to sand anymore...

PT:
1 "coat" = 1 pass suffcient to entirely cover the piece, which may involve some multiple of overlapped strokes...

Me:
I think I may be able to figure out "shoot as wet as you dare" now and I'll be daring to shoot much wetter than I've been....

PT:
...another little thing I thought of to help your shooting - do the EDGES and hard contours of the piece first - take your first shots around the lower end/seams of the tank all around, then shoot moderately wet around the neck as indicated, then immediately shoot one overlapped set of strokes starting at the BOTTOM of each side, meeting in in the middle of the TOP, then shoot a second lighter "mist" series of overlaps on the TOP of the tank = 1 coat. Repeat 3 or 4 times at 10 minute intervals. The heavier application on top will melt together to improve the gloss with lesser tendency to run. = sweet job...

This is what the tank looked like w/the rattlecan clear, before the PJ1.



Post edited by: ronjones, at: 2007/04/23 22:02

Me:
'morning PT, got a question for you. I got the PJ1 and it looks like it may be a fairly pleasant day. Not the 70 degree recommended temp but upper 50's and pleasant. Do you think I could get this final coat put on today? After it drys a bit I could bring it inside but was wondering about how critical the application temp is.

PT:
It's do-able, but you have to go a little lighter on your coats, as it'll take longer to set.
Somewhat lighter on the coats, give 12-15 minute tack time instead of 10 to allow for lower temp.
Best way to tell how "set" each coat is to stick a fingertip on the masked filler neck. When it "strings" as you pull your finger away, you're generally ready for another coat.
After you're done shooting, leave the tank set for a good half-hour before moving it inside - allows the job to "melt" together and smooth out before the increased temp inside quickens the set...

Me:
...When I read your note I thought to just wait until it warmed,...it ended up getting pretty sunny and maybe hit 70, so I used the epoxy. Man that stuff is GREAT:), got 3 good coats on it and it glooooooossssssyyy:). I was able to let it set up in the sun and it still needs to melt but it looks like it's gonna turn out real nice:) Thanks again for the heads up on that stuff.

PT:
Hey - sweet - glad to hear things worked out.
Told you that if you played your cards right, things 'd go better than you planned...

Me:
...At this point it's feels very smooth w/a slight texture and you can see the texturing in the light. I'm hoping most of this will melt out, but if it doesn't, can I go to the next steps in finishing or will I need another coat?...

PT:
Give the last coat a couple of days and see what happens. I'm thinking the "texture" is an artifact of the earlier shoots.
You can go either way - finish as is - that is - lightly sand and rub, or sand it again and give her one more shot. The final "look" of a clear job is dependent upon the texture underneath because of the shrinkage factor.

I tried to get a picture of the "texture" I was trying to discribe. Can't really tell, this is after the PJ1

PT:
Hey - how was that tank looking this morning?

Me:
...I did use the 600 grit sandpaper on the tank before putting the epoxy on, and it felt pretty smooth.

PT:
...it'll be a day or two yet before the "real" appearance of the tank is known.
The largest issue there is what "pretty" smooth means - and that's a matter of experience. Sounds like you're way ahead of where you expected to be anyways, which is nice. ...

Me:
In this case "pretty smooth" means that I thought it felt smooth. Now, you on the other hand, w/your experience, might run your hand over it and come back and say it "felt like sandpaper" or look at it and say I gotta do more sanding...
...I took the before epoxy pics. I'll try to take one in the house, maybe the lower light will show up the "texture" that I see and feel...maybe by the time I get home, it will have melted out. The last time I noticed the major melting was done after, about, 3 days. What I'm calling texture, is kind of like the fine grain you can see on a good piece of leather and the feel was barely noticeable...

PT:
...you're entirely correct - what you'd consider "pretty smooth", I'd probably have a somewhat different opinion of, and that's entirely derived from experience.
Not to worry, the number of times you can go back to the "clear" well isn't written in stone. Once I see a pic, I'll be able to tell in short order.
It's pretty certain that the "texture" you're referring to is peel, be it from this latest shoot or the previous.
Chances are that you could give it a light wet sand with the #1000 paper now until it's "smooth" to your touch, go at it with the polishing compound/swirl glaze and be pretty well astounded with the results...

Me: (Refering to another thread)
... I think I know where they are getting the "do all coats w/in 60min". The directions on my cans, at least, do say that but it also adds "or wait 7 days". My tank looks to be getting smoother. Like I said in the thread, I really can see some blurry reflections. I think it's gonna polish up real nice:)

PT:
the *proviso* being all *COATS* within 60 minutes.
Painting and clearing are separate operations.
Honestly, I've never even read one of those damned labels. Do something for years, you get to know what you're doing...
...As to your job, it's your choice - you can go either way - sand an attempt to polish - or sand and give her another shot - the prep is the same and nothing's lost by going for a polish job at this point.
One more good medium-heavy shot of clear on a well-sanded base, and you'll start getting close to those shots I put up in the thread. Then you've got the sidecovers and tail to do...

Me:
I think what will finally determine wether I put another coat on it is a combination of: what the tank looks like after I sand it, weather and getting the bike fired up. Got the side covers already painted.

PT:
Well, you're in the home stretch now in any case - and can always go for another shot - polish it, ride it for the summer and if you decide you don't care for it, scuff it and shoot it again - the clear, once applied, is the most amiable part of the job.

Me:
... I'll probably do as you're suggesting. The fenders are, possibly, another matter. You may not remember, I mentioned it in the other thread, but I painted them last year. I don't think I was dumb enough to sand them, I know I used an "adheasion promoter". I painted them because there was quite a bit of pitting, through the chrome. It's starting to flake off anyway so I'll bring them back to chrome, but may have to replace them, when I get a look...

PT:
I remember your mentioning the fenders - and relaying the sad news that once chrome's pitted, there's not much to be done - it's shot. The fenders can be sanded, filled and painted, but as chrome items their days are done.
Adhesion promoters work moderately well in some circumstances, but yours is the first time I've heard of it being used on chrome. I doubt it did much adhesion promoting applied directly to chrome...
...Pretty much any polish/glazing compound followed by a good wax will do fine. A lot of hay is made about super-high tech acryllics and such, and arguably do as good a job, ....

Me:
I guess I'll see on what happens w/the fenders...
...Oh one more question: should I even think about putting on another coat of clear after I've put the emblems/badges back on? I'm assuming that the answer is no and I also should do my polishing/glazing before putting them back on. But that brings another question, should I remove the badges/emblems when I wax?

PT:
...No - badges go on apre' clear - clear on pot metal would just look like shit.
Do your polishing/glazing BEFORE placing the badges/emblems back on.
Naaa - wouldn't worry about removing 'em for periodic waxing. As taking 'em off always requires some fussing about, the chance of putting a deep, nice-looking *SCCCRATCH* right where you need it least is a high price to pay for the possibilty of that "unsightly wax buildup" around your emblems.

This is the tank after the PJ1 had dried a week. I hadn't done the final 1000 grit sanding, compound or polish yet.

Me:
I got the tank done, and bike runnin' ,it's not perfect but it'll do. I put a couple of fine stratches in it somehow and still needs a bit more sanding. Unfortuantely my side covers have turned out a darker shade of blue, than the tank:(...

PT:
Generally, it's a good idea to shoot the color on all the pieces at once, uing the same can(s) and do the final coat all from the same can using the same shooting style.
Metallic paints are best shot a bit on the DRY side, and misting the final coat or two helps keep the metallic even - minimizes streaking, dark/light spots, etc....
...SCRATCHED? Already! And you wanted to take the emblems off for waxing? hehehehehehehehehe...

Well, these are the last 2 pics. This one is after compound and polish.

I have to put this one in, you can see a nice reflection of the bottle of polish.:woohoo:
PT:cheer:

Shoot, forgot this last exchange:
Me:
Yeah, I think some grit got on either my sandpaper or the compound. Probably sandpaper, I think I actually felt it. Got it all polished up yesterday and saw the scratches. Still had quite a bit of peel also. Didn't see them util then. Took 600 and followed it up w/1000 then compound. Looks alot better but not perfect:(. Ran out of paint, bought last yea, for the last coat and a new can. I'm gonna have to live w/it, hopefully it won't be too noticable.

PT:
Not that big a deal.
I never have written the "sanding" part of the encyclopedia, but here's a quick peek: you sand UNTIL the peel is gone - doesn't do much good to compound peel.
Paint's paint - not much can be done about the shading issues short of re-shooting, and I'm thinking you're not into that.
Anything in the clear/finishing issues we can always take care of with another shot - gloss has a way of hiding a lot of f...ups..

Th-th-th-that's all folks...Thanks

Post edited by: ronjones, at: 2007/04/24 08:09

I suggest another sticky, or add this to the how to repaint your bike thread:cheer:
PT is once again "the man"

Damn. I said all that?

My check in the mail yet?

ronjones wrote:

I have to put this one in, you can see a nice reflection of the bottle of polish.:woohoo:
Th-th-th-that's all folks...Thanks PT:cheer:

This is the shot that really tells the story.

Don't know exactly why, but cameras just don't seem to like silvers and light blue metallics - always have a bitch of a time getting a proper view of the proceedings.

Y'dun good.

For the record, this is the first I've seen these shots myself, and depspite the rather inept nature of trying to communicate *anything* via PM, Ron did a really nice job of interpreting my pidgin.

Rather than latching on to that barely intelligible mishmash of yapping as some authoritative text on how to paint everything including yourself and the tree you're under, I've considered doing a series I joked with Ron under the heading of "Rattlecanning Like You Mean It."

Basically, taking a junk tank of some variety and document the whole process - from stripping to clear.

If there's enough interest out there, I'll do it.

77KZ650 wrote:

...PT is once again "the man"

Yep:)

You da man. If you ever do a write up I'd be interested.

Pterosaur wrote:

Rather than latching on to that barely intelligible mishmash of yapping as some authoritative text on how to paint everything including yourself and the tree you're under, I've considered doing a series I joked with Ron under the heading of "Rattlecanning Like You Mean It."

Basically, taking a junk tank of some variety and document the whole process - from stripping to clear.

If there's enough interest out there, I'll do it.

There is enough interest:)

Pterosaur wrote:

Damn. I said all that?

My check in the mail yet?

\

Ya' sure did...actually I probably edited 3/4 of the PM content.

Re: check in mail, yet?
You will be pleased to know that I bought carbon emission credits, from this company that I'm forming, in your name;). This way I get to say that I'm offsetting the pollution caused by the paint volatiles, it makes both you and me feel better that we are doing our share to clean up the environment...and best of all...it didn't cost me ANYTHING :woohoo:!!! plus I also get a tax break;), it's a win-win-win for me and the environment...sorry you will not be able to make the utility bill payments:(