How Much Better are Dual Front Discs vs. Single?

I'll go for ABS on cars but not bikes. The secret I found is to not pump the brakes and I've had better luck with ABS than non-abs. My Jeep doesn't have ABS and I've learned to aim for curbs for sudden stops during winter driving. The car on the other hand does much better, just not as fun in an empty iced over parking lot (these were pre-california days ).

bountyhunter wrote:

PLUMMEN wrote:

antilock brakes suck on cars

They've saved my ass a few times. I remember one particular instance going about 60 on an expressway approaching an intersection when some major brain dead dipwipe sitting in the left turn lane at the light decided to pull out into my lane right in front of me so he could go straight. I couldn't go around on either side because of solid traffic. I was so sure I was going to hit him, I had already braced for impact as I held the brakes full down. Amazing how much faster cars stop with ABS.

i slid down a hill and stopped right in front of a city plow truck that was doing 30 mph 1 time thanks to antilock brakes,i decided to take my chances and hit the gas and head for tree line across the the street.that plow missed my drivers side door by about 6" i wouldnt be sitting here right now i hadnt punched the gas pedal,you can keep your abs! :S common sense has saved many more lives than abs ever will in my opinion anyway

RonKZ650 wrote:

PLUMMEN wrote:

antilock brakes suck on cars ,i cant imagine them on a bike! :S

I'm glad someone else feels this way. Apparently that makes 2 of us anyway. On the Honda GL1800 forum this subject comes up regularly and as the GL1800 can be bought with or without ABS opinions vary. 95% believe heavily in ABS. I bought my GL1800 specifically without solely on my own experience in cars in trucks. In 1989 I bought a new Ford truck with ABS. It nearly killed me several times because all the ABS did in it was basically remove all brake pressure the instant wheels even think of locking. So the scenerio is you're going 40mph on a wet road, a quick stop is needed for a stoplight, dog, another car, or any other of 10,000 reasons, hit the brakes and the truck instantly brakes as I'm used to for 40 years, then I feel the brakes are locking so I let up pressure slightly, BUT, the ABS also kicks in and completely releases the brakes. Whoa, now I'm not stopping, jam the brakes on full trying to forget all skills learned in 40 yrs driving and finally stop, with any luck before hitting whatever was the object you were avoiding. Cut the wiring to the ABS and warning indicator on the dash and voila' perfect brakes. 8 yrs later I get a new Ford truck and back to this crap ABS problem, but on this truck they use the same sensor for the ABS as they do to do the speedo, so wiring can't be cut, so I'm out of luck. I've driven this truck 13 yrs now and I just can't believe I'm still alive. Give 1/4 mile following distance is my advice, keep eyes peeled and be ready. Of course these are only 2 wheel ABS, so the wife gets a new Jeep with ABS. We test the ABS a few times. What it does is if the wheels are locking it pumps the brakes like 10 times a second or whatever, so you get this d-d-d-d-d-d-d feel like a machine gun. We were on a dirt road, I took a turn, the ABS kicked in and that d-d-d-d-d-d made the wheels hop with every d-d-d- just like a washboard road and I had no brakes and we nearly went off the road. Do I want this on a motorcycle?

my experiance exactly,your stock is rising Ron!

KawiConvert wrote:

I'll go for ABS on cars but not bikes. The secret I found is to not pump the brakes and I've had better luck with ABS than non-abs. My Jeep doesn't have ABS and I've learned to aim for curbs for sudden stops during winter driving. The car on the other hand does much better, just not as fun in an empty iced over parking lot (these were pre-california days ).

thats where the common sense factor kicks in:brake early,slow down,shift to nuetral when going down slow icy streets/hills so youre not fighting the transmission trying to push you while youre trying to stop on ice .........

Anybody who thinks ABS brakes are "worse" can always disconnect the wheel sensors and then the wheels will lock up and skid to your heart's content.... just like the good old days. Those who wish to stay with the technology in this century probably won't.

www.abs-education.org/news/nwusares.html

The ABS Education Alliance believes USA Today, in its March 4 issue, is right to acknowledge the need for educating the driving public on the proper use of anti-lock brakes (ABS).

The ABS Education Alliance maintains that for more than a decade, ABS has been recognized as a proven safety technology which, when properly used, can help drivers avoid crashes in emergency braking situations.

Industry experts agree.

"AAA stands behind the technological benefits of anti-lock brakes as the system is a proven advancement in modern automobile safety," said AAA Managing Director of Traffic Safety Mark Edwards. "Questions raised about the effectiveness of ABS only underscore what organizations like AAA and the ABS Education Alliance have known all along -- drivers need to be educated on the proper use of ABS."

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) says, "When used properly, an anti-lock brake system (ABS) is a safe and effective braking system. ABS allows the driver to maintain directional stability, control over steering and, in some situations, to reduce stopping distances during emergency braking situations, particularly on wet and slippery road surfaces." NHTSA adds, "To gain this safety advantage, drivers must learn how to operate their ABS correctly."

The best testimony to the proven effects of ABS is that virtually all highway safety experts, from the head of NHTSA to the head of GM’s Vehicle Safety Center, personally drive vehicles with ABS.



USA Today does acknowledge that there have been various findings from other studies on ABS conducted in recent years. Among these is a February 1996 study commissioned by the American Automobile Manufacturers Association (AAMA) and the Association of International Automobile Manufacturers (AIAM) and conducted by Failure Analysis Associates (FaAA) which found ABS to be associated with approximately a 10 percent overall reduction in crashes.

"ABS is designed to help prevent crashes," said Rosemarie Kitchin, director of the ABS Education Alliance. "The best way we can measure that ABS is working is by the anecdotal stories people tell us about how ABS helped them avoid a crash and, in some cases, saved their lives.///

The fact is, ABS prevents wheel-lock, which can cause skidding and a loss of control in emergency situations. With ABS, a driver can maintain control, allowing the car to go where the driver steers it. That is, if a driver steers a little to the right, the car will travel a little to the right; if a driver steers a lot to the right, the car will follow.

////
The ABS Education Alliance believes education is key to understanding the technology and offers the following tips for driving with ABS:

Always brake and steer when using anti-lock brakes -- With ABS, you "brake and steer." Push the brake pedal while steering around hazards and keep your foot firmly on the brake pedal until the car comes to a stop. Do not take your foot off the pedal or pump the brakes because that will disengage the anti-lock system.

Remember you can steer to avoid hazards while braking with ABS -- Steer clear of hazards, while keeping your foot firmly on the brake pedal. Be aware that your vehicle will not turn as quickly on a slippery road as it would on dry pavement.

Expect noise and vibration in the brake pedal when your ABS is in use -- These sensations tell you ABS is working.

Practice using your ABS -- Practice in a non-emergency situation, such as an open parking lot, so you are familiar with ABS before an emergency condition presents itself.

Drive safely, because your ABS is only as good as the driver using it -- Anti-lock brakes cannot compensate for driving faster or more aggressively, or maintaining unsafe following distances. They cannot guarantee recovery from a spin or skid prior to an emergency braking situation.




Third-party advocates for the ABS Education Alliance

"AAA stands behind the technological benefits of anti-lock brakes as the system is a proven advancement in modern automobile safety. Questions raised about the effectiveness of ABS only underscore what organizations like AAA and the ABS Education Alliance have known all along -- drivers need to be educated on the proper use of ABS."
-- Mark Edwards, AAA Managing Director of Traffic Safety Programs



"Do the anti-lock brake systems work? Yes they do. Would I like to have one in my car? Yes I would. But do I need to be told how to use it properly and should I practice it? Absolutely."
-- Dr. Ricardo Martinez, NHTSA Administrator
ABC-TV "World News Tonight," Oct. 16, 1997



"Technology and training go hand in hand. In the case of ABS, drivers need to understand how the technology is designed to help them before they find themselves in a situation where they need to use it. Education is critical."
-- Allen Robinson, American Driver and Traffic Safety Education Association CEO



"Anti-lock brakes could be the most important development in automobile safety in the last 50 years."
-- Lesley Hazleton, Detroit Free Press auto writer and author



"Anti-lock brakes are a great safety device...They help motorists bring their cars under control in panic situations and allow them to maintain control of the steering."
-- Jim Mateja, Chicago Tribune auto writer

its got nothing to do with technology,its called common sense if you use it even on an old dinosaur youve got far less chance of becoming a statistic is all im saying and yes im more then willing to take a riding/braking test against anybody who wants to drive here! :laugh:

So what some of you are saying is that every modern car would stop better without abs? My job requires emergency vehicle operation training and during the course the vehicles have a switch to turn off the abs. I have tried each way. No way can you brakein the same distance, especially while turning. Control is also positively affected. Hey I like old motorcycles too, but I DO realize they will never stop as good as my new ones!!

the new bikes would stop faster even without abs
driving without abs we learned to get the tires to where they just started to skid abs took that away so anybody could stop without skidding.
I like the feel of the pedal without abs myself can't say on a bike never had one with abs but if its like a car I'd rather not have it but we don't really have a choice anymore.

I'm sold on ABS. I believe all the one on one tests have been performed. I kinda like the idea of even those whose skills are not superhuman are stopping under control and less likely going to make me a hood ornament. Granted that person should not be fiddling with a GPS, on a cell phone, slapping hot red lipstick on or drinking anything. Sometimes we talk like we are the only ones on the road. I guess sometimes we drive like it too.

Oh and I have a 650 with a single and a 900 with a double. I don't find much difference in braking power but I'm not super heating them either. But I do notice the mass. For everyday riding less mass is better. IMHO

Also some bikes are coming up with integrated braking where one thing operates both front and rear brakes. I'm NOT sold on that! Another fly in the ointment.......

Locozuna wrote:

I'm sold on ABS. I believe all the one on one tests have been performed. I kinda like the idea of even those whose skills are not superhuman are stopping under control and less likely going to make me a hood ornament. Granted that person should not be fiddling with a GPS, on a cell phone, slapping hot red lipstick on or drinking anything. Sometimes we talk like we are the only ones on the road. I guess sometimes we drive like it too.

Good point I didn't look at it that way.

PLUMMEN wrote:

KawiConvert wrote:

I'll go for ABS on cars but not bikes. The secret I found is to not pump the brakes and I've had better luck with ABS than non-abs. My Jeep doesn't have ABS and I've learned to aim for curbs for sudden stops during winter driving. The car on the other hand does much better, just not as fun in an empty iced over parking lot (these were pre-california days ).

thats where the common sense factor kicks in:brake early,slow down,shift to nuetral when going down slow icy streets/hills so youre not fighting the transmission trying to push you while youre trying to stop on ice .........

I put it in 4-wheel drive and use the engine to keep the wheels moving while braking. Not great, but at least I didn't slide. In a little pickup once I did have to choose the curb once as it turned into a toboggan. In that town though it was a guess as to what intersections would be bad. I used to keep the kids happy in the car by sliding in the parking lot while my wife was in the store. I got very used to the feel of ABS doing that and the kids had fun sliding around.

bountyhunter wrote:
The point made was that the stock brakes (single disc) have a proportional amount of braking for a given pressure. A light pull gives a light brake and a hard pull puts my face in the windshield. There is no advantage to having a brake system that locks the wheel with a light pull, it effectively moves system operation towards digital (on/off) instead of an analog one (proportional). I'd rather have the brake work like it does now. I have enough brake power to lock the wheel, I can't use any more than that.

As for panic stops..... practice them all you want, but if there is a truly life threatening situation, 99.999% of people will yank hard on the brake. That's why ABS systems were developed, I wish they had them on bikes. I don't want a hair trigger front brake.[/quote]

Pheww, so you are saying that modern bikes have more or less on/off -brakes? Well, does Rossi or Stoner know that? Somebody warn them so they don´t dip their bikes:P

Sorry Bountyhunter, I really don´t buy your arguments on this. My brakes don´t lock-up with "light-pull" or act like on/off. They work really smooth and you can use only 2 fingers normally also when leaning on tight curves. Maybe you should consider changing front tire if it lock accidently cause mine won´t.

So did you try to make a panic stop with rear wheel up?