Looking for help with a spark advancer unit (1016)

If I run the spark advancer at TDC, and the pointer wheel to the WEST like it should be, the bike will sputter and bog, and blow smoke out the intake, but wont start. This pic shows at TDC.
I tried flipping the pointer wheel 180 degrees and it fires right up like it should, but ANY throttle input will cause it to bog down and sputter and pop...
It sounds like the firing is out of time or the plugs are firing in the wrong order, I just cant find why.

 

I had parts from a 1016 and a 1013 from the junkyard to make one working 1016 unit. (2nd pic shows the different keyways)



This was a running bike, just rebuilt the bottom end, as well as the spark advancer unit that was frozen...
The parts cleaned up nice. Put in a little grease on the shaft and sprayed with hi temp black.

Strange thing: before the rebuild, the advancer wheel was frozen up, and it ran (what I'd consider) good. I have yet to see what it does with a working advancer unit.
If anyone can help Id really appreciate it.
My coil wiring is (L green red / black red R) and plug wires look correct @ 2,3,1,4

 
 

I also double checked the cam timing and its the same as it was before. Had to double check, because I removed the cam chain tensioner to lift the crankshaft a little bit in order to get new oil seals on
Also cleaned the plugs and sanded the tips, put in fresh gas, and had the carbs sitting filled with seafoam for the past 2 weeks.

Odd first post, but I had to cave in and ask. I spent 4 hours flipping things around and trying what I could. (Hints the stripped/missing screw on the spark unit plate.)
Ill put up a build post at some point.

Plug wire order is largely irrelevant - one coil triggers cylinders 1 & 4 together the other triggers cylinders 2 & 3 together. If it starts better by flipping the rotor is sounds like the black and green coil wires may be crossed (you will still need to fine tune the ignition timing) probably best to stick with the advancer parts intended for this bike as trying to compensate for the different keyway position will mean you need to extend the slots in the back plate to get enough adjustment.

what motorcycle is it. stock part number? the springs could be the problem on a non-stock advancer. afaik. a 1016 unit is for a 550. while the 1013 is for a 750-4. I do not know if the rotors are interchangeable.  in case it needs to be said. the advancer T mark should align with the mark on the engine.

1981 kz650. 

Not saying this is the cause of your issue, But know that in the past I found it was easy to not set it up correctly.There is a line on the edge of the cam that must align with the open hole in the advancer or the cam will be 180* out.  See picture:

 

Wookie58 wrote: 
Plug wire order is largely irrelevant - one coil triggers cylinders 1 & 4 together the other triggers cylinders 2 & 3 together. If it starts better by flipping the rotor is sounds like the black and green coil wires may be crossed (you will still need to fine tune the ignition timing) probably best to stick with the advancer parts intended for this bike as trying to compensate for the different keyway position will mean you need to extend the slots in the back plate to get enough adjustment.

I do not believe the issue is the coil or plug wiring. I'm aware of the wasted spark setup.
As far as the spark advancer, these are the ignition parts intended for this bike. The stock unit I removed was a 1016, and I replaced it with a 1016 base with correct keyway. The springs and rotating wheel on both the 1016 and 1013 are identical. The arms also have the rubbers attached.

The bike is a 81 KZ550

Im really at a loss as to why it starts and idles with the timing pointer flipped incorrectly at 180 degrees (facing EAST). It makes me think my coil packs are wired wrong, but the + and - are correct, otherwise I wouldn't have spark at all, and my plug wires have gotta be correct because 2 and 3 dont reach to 1 and 4, and with the wasted spark, there isn't any other way to wire them... 

I've got the timing pointer setup as it should be, facing WEST and cranking just gives a strange pop from the exhaust, and the intakes get warm... something is flipped around somewhere....dont think its the spark unit anymore either... last thing i can swap around is my green on my left coil and my black on my right coil...

Another point to consider, the pic you posted shows the rotor aligned with the pick up at TDC so it’s firing after TDC, shouldn’t the static position be dirt against the 1-4 mark and not TDC ?

Tried flipping the Left side green, and the right side black wires and it starts up as it should. with the ignition wheel setup as it should be. Dont know why. The coils are labeled L and R from last time I ran the thing.

The popping is coming from cylinder 4 intake.
I gotta take off the tank, and coils, and see what my valve specs are . maybe when I adjusted the timing last, a shim got dislodged or something....


AFK

Wookie58 post=913259 userid=60568
Another point to consider, the pic you posted shows the rotor aligned with the pick up at TDC so it’s firing after TDC, shouldn’t the static position be dirt against the 1-4 mark and not TDC ?

There is no adjustment with the timing advancer/rotor. There is a keyway and it only goes on one way, nor is there adjustment in the pickups. The only hole that is oblong is the top one with the screw missing. The other 2 holes are not oblong.

I giveup for the night...
Chasing a problem that I cant find. Took off the tank, and carbs, and valve cover. Checked that a shim hadnt moved from under its bucket during the last timing check. Nothing to see there.
Checked my valve specs, and was showing that #4 intake was tight. Took out a 255 shim, replaced with a 245 shim, now its sitting at .15. 

Will only start with the coil wiring (green and black) flipped or the timing advancer rotor flipped. Very small throttle response, then pops out the intake 1 and 4 and bogs down and dies on the center stand. 
Something is flipped around, I dont know what else to check.

Haven't tried the carbs. 

Did you disassemble the pickup plate, and its magnets, and did you note the orientation of the magnets that are sandwiched in between?

I had exactly the same symptoms that you are experiencing, after incorrectly assembling the magnets.
The are 4 possible permutations, of magnet position and orientation, and only one that works. I had flipped one of the magnets over.
 
By looking closely, I could see witness marks on the plate and magnets and subsequently  got the magnets orientated / assembled correctly.

Also, the screws that hold the magnets MUST be Brass... I assumed that the brass screws were used to mount pickup coils... ask me how I know!
H.

howardhb wrote:

Did you disassemble the pickup plate, and its magnets, and did you note the orientation of the magnets that are sandwiched in between?

I had exactly the same symptoms that you are experiencing, after incorrectly assembling the magnets.
The are 4 possible permutations, of magnet position and orientation, and only one that works. I had flipped one of the magnets over.
 
By looking closely, I could see witness marks on the plate and magnets and subsequently  got the magnets orientated / assembled correctly.

Also, the screws that hold the magnets MUST be Brass... I assumed that the brass screws were used to mount pickup coils... ask me how I know!
H.

 

Yo. Some light at the end! I had my New (used) magnet plate disassembled to swap parts around and prime. I rebuilt it according to the little white line that was on the OLD original magnet pickup plate. I placed them in the same orientation, but they may be different. Its gotta be this... THANK YOU ahead of time for even the suggestion. I didnt even consider it!