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TOPIC: Many issues. Looking for help.

Many issues. Looking for help. 19 Mar 2020 09:21 #821217

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Many issues. Looking for help. 19 Mar 2020 09:47 #821221

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The meter on the 200 ohm range, the meter is applying a small voltage to the circuit. Shorting the leads together checks the meters internal resistance and the lead resistance.
1981 Kawasaki Kz1000K1
Located in the Saint Louis, Missouri Area.

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Many issues. Looking for help. 19 Mar 2020 12:29 #821231

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Many issues. Looking for help. 19 Mar 2020 13:30 #821235

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Well my, my, my. Being just a humble shadetree mechanic I find this "discussion" informative, but as with so many discussions like this, you have left me in the dust. Perhaps all the electric experts could try to remember that most, or many readers here don't have the background you fellas do. I haven't crawled out of the 1970's yet and still relay on a simple Mac tools analog ohm meter with one range for my electrical work. I zero the ohm meter as I have done for years and then hold the leads together to make sure I have no resistance and the meter reflects that by reading zero ohms. I guess I never realized a multi-meter can't be zeroed but now I know. I was thinking of buying one with the ability to take dwell readings, but I just may get myself in deeper trouble with one of those. I wish I would have paid attention now in my high school electrical shop classes. Solder on guys.....
Rick H.
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Many issues. Looking for help. 19 Mar 2020 13:45 #821236

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I used to have a nicer, more expensive meter Rick, but after loaning one out never to return, smoking one out on a 500 watt High pressure sodium ballast (poof! lol) and whatnot.. But with single purpose IC chips advanced technology now days, a half way decent meter can be had for little money. I now use a HF $20.00 cheapie on electronics that works fine. I did got to Gateway Electronics and replace those super short / cheap leads. The Fluke meter on the left is the one I carry in my tool bucket and use daily on AC circuits. It also has the amp probes that just go over the conductors and read circuit amperage easily. They are still $300.00, but hold up well tossing it in my tool bucket with the leather case protecting it. I was checking my stator current with it in the pic.



There is nothing wrong with the old analog meters Rick. I had a nice Simpson analog meter back in the day. They do have a lot of input impedance and if checking ohms, need a good battery to get anywhere close to accurate.
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Many issues. Looking for help. 19 Mar 2020 15:30 #821241

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Unfortunately, the term "input impedance" is not up for being re-defined. It is already defined, so it would be poor choice of terminology to use for some other definition. Jim's term is not defined, so it was appropriate to use because he could define it however he wanted, and did. No one said anything about "input resistance" that I know of... not sure why you are hung up on that.

And by they way, you do realize this whole discussion started because of your critique of him using a term you didn't like, and then suggested a term you would prefer over that. So I think the critique started before I got involved.

There are thousands of posts on kzrider with minor electrical errors that I skip past all the time. I only point out the ones that would be misleading to the reader. The goal here is to clarify things for people, not confuse them more than they already are.

I already did a telecall with the doc today. I'm not scheduled for another until april.
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Many issues. Looking for help. 20 Mar 2020 04:24 #821261

  • riturbo
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Jeez guys this guys just trying to get his bike fixed .
Gpz 750 turbo The one I ride
Gpz 750 turbo Not finished
Gpz 750 turbo Not started
Gpz 550 1981
Gpz 550 1983
Bunch of other junk
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Many issues. Looking for help. 20 Mar 2020 05:55 #821265

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Despite you trying to rewrite history, we both know what you wrote.
Me give it a rest? Who is the one introducing more and more unrelated material, not to mention personal attacks? You brought up two completely unrelated things... "input resistance" that no one mentioned...
...Then the diagram of how a coil works, yet again...
I don't need to edit it, because it doesn't help anyone here. No one is asking how a coil works.
I didn't tell anyone to draw anything, I didn't say anyone needed permission for a poor choice in terminology... but it might get pointed out since this is a forum.

I'm fine with deleting all of it. But you still haven't.

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Many issues. Looking for help. 20 Mar 2020 07:47 #821270

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Unrelated material? This just keeps getting stupider by the post. A coil is a step-up transformer. (I hope I didn't redefine a transformer / coil wrong.) The transformer pic shows the secondary connected through a resistance just like the waste spark ignition system operates. If you don't see the relevance of the pic? .


" Despite you trying to rewrite history, we both know what you wrote."???

Now this statement is funny. Thanks for the laugh. You must be fun at parties. LOL

This statement reminds me of that movie with the line "I know what you did last night". Hilarious! LOL

Nobody is rewriting history by referring to anything in their own terms. I never felt any of my ramblings or if I use the wrong textbook terminology, to be rewriting anything (history? duh) You give my posts wayyyy too much credit! Please! lol

I try to help the clueless folks with their bikes.

It's good thing that the internet has you to correct it.
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Located in the Saint Louis, Missouri Area.

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Many issues. Looking for help. 20 Mar 2020 08:34 #821273

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riturbo wrote: Jeez guys this guys just trying to get his bike fixed .


Believe it or not, and despite the stupidity this thread has turned into, there is some technical content. All you need to do is try to decipher it from the BS.

I do apologize to the OP, and the KZR forum in general for letting myself get sucked into this stupidity.
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Many issues. Looking for help. 21 Mar 2020 06:12 #821288

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Rick H. wrote: ... and still relay [sic] on a simple Mac tools analog ohm meter with one range for my electrical work. I zero the ohm meter as I have done for years and then hold the leads together to make sure I have no resistance and the meter reflects that by reading zero ohms... Rick H.

Not knowing that an analog meter was being used was the main reason we wrote all those words about determining what an inexpensive DMM displays when it's probes are touched together, as in preparation for testing components that should have low resistance in the single digits, such as a relay coil or, the primary windings of an ignition coil. Not fussing, just an observation.

It can be a little tricky to accurately determine single-digit resistance of a component with analog meters having a single-range resistance setting, because the resulting position of the needle is so close to "0" on the scale. Parallax error can creep in too if the scale is not mirrored.

We prefer to use an analog meter for simple continuity tests, because it becomes a simple Y/N question; does the needle move, Y/N ?
Even simpler (and often much preferred by us) for testing continuity is a basic self-powered continuity test light, nothing more than a AA cell with a low-volt incandescent bulb and wired probe at one end, and a wired probe at the other end. Does the bulb energize, Y/N ? Y, the circuit is closed. N, the circuit is open.

Terminology:
I (slmjim) spent the first two decades of my career in the photocopier industry as a hardware Tech on analog copiers. Even on today's digital laser copiers/printers, photoconductor (drum) grounds have to be stable to maintain consistent image quality, and as close to ground potential (zero Ohms) as possible to work at all. This is an engineering challenge with something that always moves during image formation (rotates around it's own axis). Because Techs often supply their own meters, there was (and still is) variation in how different meters react when probes are shorted together with the meter set to lowest resistance. This variation is usually due to the meter leads themselves. Inexpensive leads will often have resistance of a few Ohms each. More expensive, high-quality leads can achieve sub-one-Ohm resistance.

It was in the late 1970's that I first heard the term (native resistance) from a Senior Instructor at a factory Minolta photocopier school in the context of multimeters. The term was at once intuitive and descriptive; I thought it was a common term. My apologies for introducing an unfamiliar term that caused friction.

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Many issues. Looking for help. 21 Mar 2020 15:03 #821331

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slmjim+Z1BEBE wrote: Terminology:
I (slmjim) spent the first two decades of my career in the photocopier industry as a hardware Tech on analog copiers. Even on today's digital laser copiers/printers, photoconductor (drum) grounds have to be stable to maintain consistent image quality, and as close to ground potential (zero Ohms) as possible to work at all. This is an engineering challenge with something that always moves during image formation (rotates around it's own axis). Because Techs often supply their own meters, there was (and still is) variation in how different meters react when probes are shorted together with the meter set to lowest resistance. This variation is usually due to the meter leads themselves. Inexpensive leads will often have resistance of a few Ohms each. More expensive, high-quality leads can achieve sub-one-Ohm resistance.

It was in the late 1970's that I first heard the term (native resistance) from a Senior Instructor at a factory Minolta photocopier school in the context of multimeters. The term was at once intuitive and descriptive; I thought it was a common term. My apologies for introducing an unfamiliar term that caused friction.

Good Ridin'
slmjim & Z1BEBE


instructors using the acronym "native resistance" for meter internal resistance is what instructors do. They >try to relate< what they are teaching to their students using terminology that will "stick". There is no term in any electronics material I have ever read that refers to meter inherent internal resistance as "native resistance" (google it).

But along the same lines, there is also no official electronics terminology using the terms "gozinta" or "gozouta". By using this term, my instructor was stressing that there MUST be a feed AND a return for any electrical circuit to function. period. And here we are 30 years after I graduated, I still use / remember the term, much in the way he did, to stress that there absolutely HAS to be a feed and return for electrons to flow. People get confused on this, especially on automotive type circuits, because they sometimes forget that the chassis is ground (return) or for the limeys, "earth". We usually only run one hot wire to most things we add in because the chassis ground is normally the return circuit, yet mostly forgotten as a part of the completed circuit.

I have worked as a flight simulator technician in one of my past lives, and actually observed one of my co-workers hold one lead of a ~20" CRT tube to the railing in the building while he explained he was bleeding off the residual electrical charge stored in the CRT.. And this was by a guy that supposedly had formal electronics training, yet only had one lead grounded. I think he got lucky by not getting the full capacitive discharge that was stored up in the CRT. He was rolling around on the walkway lalala.. . .:woohoo:

You did not cause any friction, and I am perfectly fine with your terminology. My loose interchange of the words impedance and resistance is what outrages folks. Impedance is the combination of inductive reactance and resistance in AC circuits. Input impedance does not technically apply to DC circuits nor resistance readings since nothing is alternating. It is just my catch all phrase for meter errors.
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