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TOPIC: KZ400 /KZ550 Electrical Questions

KZ400 /KZ550 Electrical Questions 06 Jan 2019 01:32 #796235

  • scristina
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Hi all.

Happy new year.

I've recently bought a 1984 KZ550 (engine code KZ550DE...) engine to install on my 1981 KZ400 (4 cylinder) and now have a couple of questions on the electrical side of it.

The distributor pick up points are a bit different and the wire colors are also different, so just wondering if these will work as long as I connect them to the IC igniter in the right order.

KZ400
https://drive.google.com/open?id=13o6ka4_3-nKvMBv8ctewKYCbchYkO-VC

KZ550
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1XfJKIyTU9Qu_Hg3wpTItETrD59Y5hrAV

KZ400 IC igniter wiring:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=131ijwBqD1pfHQXvbUGZz2U2l2J4uhBst

Another issue to sort is the alternator as the KZ550 came with the 3 yellow wire version and the KZ400 still had the 2 yellow wire version and respective Regulator/rectifier. The Rotor and stator dimensions appear to be the same, so was thinking of just changing the Stator. Does anyone know if this will work. Also any advantage on 3 yellow wire stators versus the 2 yellow wires?

Thank you in advance for your help.

Best Regards

SC

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KZ400 /KZ550 Electrical Questions 06 Jan 2019 07:43 #796254

  • martin_csr
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I don't think the 400 igniter can be used. The 400 has a mechanical timing advancer, whereas the 550 has a non-mechanical pulsing coil rotor & has an electronic advance circuit built into the igniter.

For the charging system, I would get a voltage regulator suitable for the 550's 3-phase charging system. You can get one from a late model Ninja 250/500 or Vulcan 500 up to at least 2009. The later voltage regulators on those models don't have a wire harness, but instead have the spade terminals built into the reg-rec. I would assume one of these could be used, but not sure. I installed a reg-rec from a low mileage 2007 EX500 (credit to loudhvx). The connector was reversed, so I had to change out the terminal pins.

...

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KZ400 /KZ550 Electrical Questions 06 Jan 2019 09:36 #796262

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First, yes, the older stator "should" fit the newer motor and work with the old wiring, but as Martin said, you can easily convert to a 3-phase system and have access to many more modern reg/rec units which are abundant and cheap. You will essentially have to only add one wire (yellow) from the stator to the reg/rec. The three phase system is probably more powerful.

Do you know which motor you are using. It sounds like it might be a Gpz motor. All of them start with Kz550DE... , even the Zx550 motors. But other motors, like Zr550's might use them as well. We (USA) did not get all of the same models as Europe and Japan and South America etc.

You should be able to physically swap the older ignition into the newer motor. I've done it in the past.
If you have the igniter from the new motor, you just need a diagram from the newer motor (hence it would help to know what bike it came from).

Using the older ignition on the newer motor will reduce performance a bit, and you have to use some non-standard timing or modify the advancer to get more advance range because the Kz400J motor had a more limited range, but more initial advance. Don't use the F mark on the 400J advancer using as it will have too much initial advance at idle. You will probably need a timing light to set it correctly or a degree wheel and use some home-made timing marks... a much longer topic, but it can be done if you can't find the 84 igniter box.

If you post photos and we can confirm it's a Zx550 motor and you have the igniter box, I can post a diagram of the wiring.

Looking at your other posts, I see it's probably a Zx550 motor. What did you end up doing about the oil cooler and carbs?
As a side note, if you know the exact year and model with letter and number designation that the motor came from, it might be helpful to have that information in your signature. Then everyone will know what swap is happening.

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KZ400 /KZ550 Electrical Questions 07 Jan 2019 14:59 #796364

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Thank you Martin. Will see what I can find it terms of Reg/rec that works.

loudhvx. As always thank you for your help. After a little bit of digging tonight believe the donor engine is from a 1984 GPZ550 (engine photos in attach). Do you know what Igniter Box works with this model?
Regarding the Oil cooler, a friend of mine got me one in the UK as well as a set of correct carbs and it should be arriving this week :). The ones from the KZ400J were just too small and also all 4 choke flaps were missing :(.
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KZ400 /KZ550 Electrical Questions 08 Jan 2019 06:30 #796389

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From the photos that appears to be a ZX550 GPz engine. To be certain of the year cyclechaos.com has the engine number range for each year of the ZX550. If you need a manual, there's a ZX550 supplement manual pdf available that is used in conjunction w the KZ550 base manual.

The cross-reference at Partzilla indicates that the same igniter was used on the 84-86 ZX550.
The 87-88 models probably use the same one as well, but those weren't sold in the USA so the x-ref doesn't list the ZX550-A4 or A5.
There are about a dozen igniters listed on eebbaayy, including a NOS part with the make offer option.
Buying a used igniter is kind of risky & I don't know if there's a suitable substitute.

....

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KZ400 /KZ550 Electrical Questions 11 Jan 2019 00:46 #796511

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martin_csr wrote: From the photos that appears to be a ZX550 GPz engine. To be certain of the year cyclechaos.com has the engine number range for each year of the ZX550. If you need a manual, there's a ZX550 supplement manual pdf available that is used in conjunction w the KZ550 base manual.
....

Yes. It should be. The Engine number is KZ-550DE0508XX

martin_csr wrote: The cross-reference at Partzilla indicates that the same igniter was used on the 84-86 ZX550.
The 87-88 models probably use the same one as well, but those weren't sold in the USA so the x-ref doesn't list the ZX550-A4 or A5.
There are about a dozen igniters listed on eebbaayy, including a NOS part with the make offer option.
Buying a used igniter is kind of risky & I don't know if there's a suitable substitute.
....


Trying to find one now.

Thank you for your help.

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KZ400 /KZ550 Electrical Questions 11 Jan 2019 07:57 #796520

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Here is the wiring for a Zx550 igniter. It's very different from the 400J igniter.
The Zx igniter has electronic advance built into the circuitry.
The Zx igniter has a wire for safety devices like a kickstand switch etc, so it requires that wire to be grounded for the igniter to work. That is why there are two wires that go to ground.

Here are two images showing basically the same information. There may be some slight variances in wire colors for different models and years and different countries.

The first image shows a picture of what the igniter will look like.

In the second image, I have a simplified drawing with yellow tags. You will want to use that diagram to wire your bike.



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KZ400 /KZ550 Electrical Questions 12 Jan 2019 11:00 #796593

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loudhvx wrote: Using the older ignition on the newer motor will reduce performance a bit, and you have to use some non-standard timing or modify the advancer to get more advance range because the Kz400J motor had a more limited range, but more initial advance. Don't use the F mark on the 400J advancer using as it will have too much initial advance at idle. You will probably need a timing light to set it correctly or a degree wheel and use some home-made timing marks... a much longer topic, but it can be done if you can't find the 84 igniter box.


Considering this option to get the bike running until I can find the elusive GPZ550 Igniter. Tell me more :)

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KZ400 /KZ550 Electrical Questions 12 Jan 2019 14:12 #796608

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Both the Kz550 and the 400J had mechanical advancers. They both had the same maximum advance at higher RPMs, but different idle advance. The 550 required a lower amount of advance at idle than the 400J. The Zx550 uses an ignition with a more gradually changing advance curve. You can use the Kz550 advancer with the Zx550 but it will reduce the performance a bit. In order to use the 400J advancer on the Zx550, you should retard the advancer by maybe 4 or 5 degrees at idle. This will result in the advance about 4 or 5 degrees retarded overall at higher RPMs. In other words, when you set the timing at idle, make sure the spark happens about 5 degrees from the F mark (that is 5 degrees closer to the T mark). Then the idle and lower RPMs will have the curve closer to that of a Kz550.

All of this is to prevent too much advance which may cause knock, which is of course destructive to the motor. If you are really experienced at detecting knock, and the exhaust is quiet enough for you to hear it at highway speed, you can change the advance as you see fit.
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KZ400 /KZ550 Electrical Questions 13 Jan 2019 06:36 #796668

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Hi loudhvx.

Would this advance governor be an option?



Best Regards
SC

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KZ400 /KZ550 Electrical Questions 13 Jan 2019 09:35 #796682

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I think so. (I don't read German ). ...
...as long he is saying it IS part number 21148-1016. ... (And not saying it IS NOT.)

EDIT: As Martin pointed out, it is stamped "1025" which would have Zr400 timing. So it won't be of use. You want Kz550 timing.

21148-1016 is the one from all of the electronic Kz550 models including the Kz Gpz models (D and H).
That should work correctly with the pickups and igniter from your Kz400J model bike.

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KZ400 /KZ550 Electrical Questions 13 Jan 2019 09:59 #796688

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Sorry. Forgot to send the translation:

"Complete as shown: Ignition adjuster for GPZ 550 Z 550 GP from BJ. 82-83 Fgnr. KZ550H with CDI ignition. (!! does not fit on GPZ 550 UT ZX550A from BJ.84 and Z 550 B models KZ550B before BJ.82). We checked for function. Orig comparison no. 21148-1016"

SC

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KZ400 /KZ550 Electrical Questions 13 Jan 2019 10:09 #796691

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The timing advancer in the listing has 1025 stamped into it, so I would assume 1025 is the last 4 digits of the part number for that advancer. Because every advancer I've seen for electronic ignition has the last 4 digits stamped into it. Also, the advancers in the parts diagrams usually have the prefix 21148, so I would assume the part number is 21148-1025, but Partzilla does not recognize that number.

.... pic #6 >> 21148-1016

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KZ400 /KZ550 Electrical Questions 13 Jan 2019 10:17 #796693

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For some reason, I couldn't make out the number in the photo. It should have "1016" stamped on it like this one.

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KZ400 /KZ550 Electrical Questions 13 Jan 2019 10:29 #796694

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Good catch Martin! I was able to get the zoom to work this time and saw the "1025" stamp.
21148-1025 appears to be for a Zr400, so I would not use that on a 550.

Look for 21148-1016 to use on your Zx550.
In addition to the one Martin posted in New York, you should be able to find them in Europe.

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KZ400 /KZ550 Electrical Questions 13 Jan 2019 10:45 #796696

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martin_csr wrote: The timing advancer in the listing has 1025 stamped into it, so I would assume 1025 is the last 4 digits of the part number for that advancer. Because every advancer I've seen for electronic ignition has the last 4 digits stamped into it. Also, the advancers in the parts diagrams usually have the prefix 21148, so I would assume the part number is 21148-1025, but Partzilla does not recognize that number.

.... pic #6 >> 21148-1016



Yes. I've noticed that. Already asked the question to the seller.

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KZ400 /KZ550 Electrical Questions 13 Jan 2019 10:46 #796697

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loudhvx wrote: Look for 21148-1016 to use on your Zx550.
In addition to the one Martin posted in New York, you should be able to find them in Europe.


Will do.

Thank you all for you help. It has been invaluable.

Best regards

SC

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