Shorai lithium batteries

I bought a SSB Power sport Lithium battery 290CCA for my GPZ1100B1 I'm building up. Its half the size and weights a lot less ( I estimate 1 tenth of the standard). I hope that the GPZ charging is more stable than my Z1R, unfortunately battery just fits under the seat so I hope there are no issues.
The ZRX like my other bike the FJ1200 has a good stable charging system, unlike the early Z's.
Let us know how this goes after a few months I'd be very interested

NakedFun wrote:

bountyhunter wrote: From Shorai's website:

Shorai Batteries require a charging system output of 13.1 Volts or higher at idle, and must not exceed 15.2 volts at maximum output.

A lot of old bikes can't hold 13.1V at idle if the lights are on because the alternator just doesn't have the poop. Most olf bikes (and old cars) run off the battery at idle with the lights on. Not sure if that will hurt the Shorai battery (?)

The only concern is that LiOn does not like being drawn dead. It can harm the cells though I have known some bike owners who have repeatably drawn their LiOn batteries dead and not harmed them. So as long as you are not sitting for hours at idle if your bike cannot deliver a constant 13.1 v you should be fine. As soon as the revs come up, you will begin charging.

I t'inkin it goes without saying that before installing one of these, you should ensure your charging system is functioning properly and not faulty.

Cory

Yeah, a faulty system can kill an Li battery.... but unfortunately, so can a properly working one. An Li battery requires what is called CC-CV charge modes which are constant current/constant voltage. When the battery voltage is below the final "set point", it charges with constant current. When it reaches the final voltage, you taper off the current to hold that voltage.

Safe Li charging requires when the battery is well discharged and below the "final terminal voltage", you want the charger to run in constant current mode with current limited to a safe value. A bike's system can't do that. If the battery voltage is low, the alternator is dumping everything it can into the system and it is divided between the system load and the battery. So the battery can get a lot of current when it's low. There's no free lunch in electronics and that tiny battery means it can't dissipate much heat. Lead acid batteries tolerate it better.

I suspect that if the bike has a more powerful alternator (multi phase) and it is one where the headlights can be turned off, it runs a higher risk of killing an Li battery because it can dump a lot more current into the battery when it's charging it.

NakedFun wrote:

bountyhunter wrote: From Shorai's website:

Shorai Batteries require a charging system output of 13.1 Volts or higher at idle, and must not exceed 15.2 volts at maximum output.

A lot of old bikes can't hold 13.1V at idle if the lights are on because the alternator just doesn't have the poop. Most olf bikes (and old cars) run off the battery at idle with the lights on. Not sure if that will hurt the Shorai battery (?)

The only concern is that LiOn does not like being drawn dead. It can harm the cells

That is certainly true, but in my experience, most Li batteries are killed by overcharging or charging at too high a rate which cooks them.

I found this plot of a typical CC/CV charge mode for an Li battery. It shows how the charger holds the current constant until the battery voltage reaches the "set point" then it tapers off the current and holds at constant voltage (this plot is for a single 4.2V cell). This is the ideal characteristic for Li charging. A bike's electrical system has nothing to limit the max current during the CC mode.

NOTE: the "1C" charge current refers to the A-hr rating of the battery. A 14 A-hr battery has a C rate of 14 Amps.

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bountyhunter wrote:

I found this plot of a typical CC/CV charge mode for an Li battery. It shows how the charger holds the current constant until the battery voltage reaches the "set point" then it tapers off the current and holds at constant voltage (this plot is for a single 4.2V cell). This is the ideal characteristic for Li charging. A bike's electrical system has nothing to limit the max current during the CC mode.

NOTE: the "1C" charge current refers to the A-hr rating of the battery. A 14 A-hr battery has a C rate of 14 Amps.

Pardon my ignorance, special chargers are mentioned here but on the site I bought the battery off states that no special chargers are required. Any comments??

I have to admit, this site doesn't state that but the battery site I had did make a statement about charging using a normal charger.

I almost bought one of these for my Honda XR650l , I liked the idea of the weight saving, but having read some reviews and factoring the cost of a special charger, suddenly the 6 pounds, or whatever, I was going to save in weight didn't seem to matter any more. As some of the KZ charging systems are known for "cooking" batteries at the very least I'd want some up to date regulator, that's an expensive piece of equipment to destroy prematurely.

Based on the reviews I read at the time, they certainly have fairly high early fail rates. I could never work out why you need a special charger, but the stock charging system on the vehicle is OK to charge it. I know some batteries need a special charger when they are dead, but isn't 13.5 volts from a battery charger the same as 13.5 volts from your alternator?

I've had a ballistic performance lithium ion battery for going on 8 years in my ELR clone. It has a heavily modded engine. High comp pistons, cams, ect. It cranks the engine like the spark plugs are out. I love the battery never had to charge it just installed it and forgot about it. In the winter I just leave it in the bike and come spring it fires right up. I will buy another one when this one dies,worth every penny. I will never go back to the wet battery, I went threw one every 2 years and had to keep it on a charger in the winter.

Redhawk4, I agree I wouldn't consider putting this battery in my Z1R because of the erratic charging system.

The main reason I bought the Lithium battery for the GPZ1100 re-make, is that after the mono shock was fitted I had a small amount of room so a standard battery would not fit. Also I believe the GPZ charging will be more stable/ superior to the older Z's.

Baldy110 what motor have you got in the ELR clone??

This may help explain a bit: batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/char...ithium_ion_batteries

Cory

NakedFun wrote: This may help explain a bit: batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/char...ithium_ion_batteries

Cory

It definitely sounds like you need a well regulated charging system to keep the voltages within range. I don't know about the GPz1100 and what the improvements were to that generation, but certainly I have a couple of older bikes that I think would likely fry a lithium ion battery. My 73 Triumph Tiger has a pretty poor charging system most of the time, but at higher rpm's the voltage gets rather high so it would definitely be a no, no on that. I've yet to check "stability" on my KZ1000A2, I've heard reports of the rectifiers being iffy, initially I was just glad it was charging, as we mainly were back in the 70's. Now it seems something to consider changing for overall reliability and battery life.

A better functioning charging system is always an improvement regardless of the battery, however I am not sure if you are guaranteed to fail your battery. I would first be interested what a cheap 2" digital voltage gauge temp mounted on the handle bar to monitor your direct battery voltage and see what you experience through out your operation of the bike.

You could even put a cheap inline batter disconnect switch to isolate the battery if you experience a problem while on the road.

Cory

Bozo wrote: Redhawk4, I agree I wouldn't consider putting this battery in my Z1R because of the erratic charging system.

The main reason I bought the Lithium battery for the GPZ1100 re-make, is that after the mono shock was fitted I had a small amount of room so a standard battery would not fit. Also I believe the GPZ charging will be more stable/ superior to the older Z's.

Baldy110 what motor have you got in the ELR clone??

82 GPZ1100