Starter Issue? Hot Ignition Issue? Help!

I realize that my application may cause some issues that you guys typically do not see, but I'm still hoping someone can help me diagnose my problem. I thought (and it may still be) it was purely a cooling issue where I have the engine from an '84 GPz1100 in the back of a reverse trike. I have rather large side ducts that force air over the engine. I've optimized that air flow over the head to the best of my abilities and added cooling fans for when I'm at lower speeds and have seen some heat related issues go away. The one lingering issue I have is after a 20min+ drive the engine will not restart. After it cools off it fires right up so I'm fairly certain it's heat related and not a battery issue. Has anyone overheated their GPz1100? Does the ECU have some sort of limp mode to keep it from restarting if the head temp is too high? Could it just be as simple as the starter is on it's way out? I would think the starter would just fail and not recover when it cools? But I'm running out of other ideas short of pulling the engine and finding a water cooled engine to start all over with. Any help you guys can provide would be appreciated.

Thanks and sorry for the long rambling description.

Is the cooling system you designed also directed at the starter motor. Sounds like a heat sink problem with your starter

It's not directed at the starter specifically but with the starter tucked in behind the cylinders I'd image it would be getting pretty hot. But on the bike I'd think the same would happen? Maybe the starter solenoid is getting too hot? Does either the starter or solenoid typically temporarily fail if too hot?

I forgot to mention that the fuel pump also pulses when you turn the key on and it's hot, like it's being switched on and off at a given frequency? Unlike a normal key on situation when it just turns on for a few seconds to pressurize the system. Again, is this some sort of ECU controlled limp mode? With it being fuel injected I wouldn't expect vapor lock?

Does the ECU adjust timing? Or is the ignition directly off the timing wheel on the crank? The thought here is if it's advancing/retarding the timing so much due to the temperature that it's hard to restart?

Hoping someone has had a similar issue to point me int he right direction. If it is simply not enough cooling I'm going to have to punt. If thats the case, anyone want to buy an engine? :blink:

Well first if you are worried about the Temp, install a gauge for a Air Cooled Motor. There are Cylinder head Temp gauges that are pretty common and not expensive.
Then when it is not starting. I think you say it won't turn with the starter. Measure the voltage across the battery terminals, 12.6v or better? Try bypassing the starter solenoid by jumping the two large battery cable posts with a solid metal object like a socket extension. If it doesn't turn then, recheck both of the battery cables, make sure they are tight and the ground is bolted to the engine block, where it is clean and not painted.
Then if it still won't turn, try a set of jumper cables, use them in place of the battery cables, one at a time. Replacing the Positive then the negative. One of them may have a bad end on the cable. If it still won't turn, then I'd say starter motor, but check that the engine itself turns freely. You can put it in a higher gear like 4th or 5th and push it, to roll the motor.

Thanks Motorhead, I'm trying to get the head temp from a pickup at one of the spark plugs but my gauge cluster is setup for a water cooled motor so the gauges max out at 250F. What is a normal head temp on these engines? I'll look for a proper gauge for an air cooled.

The starter does engage and the engine turns over..somewhat. It almost seems like it's not firing correctly for the engine to run? Thats why I asked about the ECU controlling the ignition timing. But if there isn't enough voltage going to the starter (or the starter is dragging) it would seem like it's fighting the engine compression as well. After the next drive I'm going to pull all the covers and ductwork to check voltages on the battery, fuel pump, starter etc and see if the ECU LED is blinking a code. It's just not a quick process to pull apart so I'm hoping the problem doesn't go away from cooling while I'm disassembling.

Okay, have some better diagnostic info. I just went for one of my longer drives to get everything good and hot. When I got it back in the garage I killed the engine. I then turned the ignition back on and the fuel pump turned on for a couple seconds and shut off as when cold? So at least that is working better now with the added cooling. I tried to start it and the starter struggled to turn the engine over like usual. I checked the battery voltage and it was only about 12.15. I asked my wife to hit the starter while I was reading the battery voltage and it dropped below 9 volts. Problem. I then pulled the duct work to get access to the solenoid and it was warm but not real hot. I probed the terminals and asked my wife to repeat. She kept holding it in this time and it eventually fired up. With the engine running the battery voltage went up to around 12.3. I then turned on my fans and it dropped to about 12.2. I turned on my AFR meter and it drop again to 12.1, turned on my oil cooler fan (which I rarely use) and it dropped to 12.0. Ok, so I have a charging issue. I always assumed it wasn't a charging issue as once it cooled down it would fire right up? The drop in compression as it cools is enough for the weak battery to turn the engine over?? I can loose the AFR meter as I'm not running nearly as rich with the improved cooling but I need the fans. The question now is do I just need to replace the alternator/rectifier? Or upgrade to a beefier one since I'm running the added fans which are likely another 10-12 amps? Did the KZ1100 police bikes have bigger alternators? Or is there an aftermarket version that would work better? Oh and when the engine isn't starting the ECU LED is blinking the following code - - ... What does this code mean?

Thanks again and sorry for the long posts.

For a higher output(has output at a lower rpm than stock)alternator, contact www.electrosport . Has the many and various electrical connectors been cleaned? If not, read and do this:

Cleaning Motorcycle Electrics

Get some of the De-Oxit DN5 electrical contact cleaner and figure on spending a good day going from the front of the bike to the back. It’s a plastic safe cleaner/preservative. www.deoxit.com is their website, and can be purchased at most electronic supply stores.

On the older Kawasaki's, a majority of electrical connectors are inside the headlight housing requiring removal of the headlight, then the fun begins.

Do one set of electrical connectors at a time to avoid mixing up what connects to where. Usually disconnecting, spraying with De-Oxit DN5 and reconnecting is about all you'll need.

However, when encountering the green crud of corrosion, a brass wire brush may be needed on the pins you can reach. Some 400-600 grit wet and dry sandpaper strips rolled into a tube should reach the male and female pins in the more difficult to clean connectors.

Smoker’s pipe cleaners, cotton swabs and wooden toothpicks work as cleaning aids.

Really small electrical connectors may require the use of a welders tip cleaning tool assortment.

Most pins in the connectors are coated with a thin plating of tin, and others may be nothing more than copper or brass.

If moisture is added, the resulting corrosion lowers the voltage/current being carried causing dim lights, slow engine cranking, slow turn signal response and lower input voltage to the ignition coils resulting in weak spark.


The left and right handlebar switch pods will need attention too as they have circuit functions like turn, horn, run/stop, and start. If you discover the soldered connections at the switches are crumbling, I’ve got a repair procedure for this, just ask.

Usually a spritz or two with actuation of the switch is about all needed for these switches unless corrosion is detected and then careful disassembly is required.

The ignition switch may or may be not sealed to allow spraying the internal contacts. I urge caution if attempting to open this up as springs, and ball bearings may fly out never to be seen again!

If your bike has the older style glass tubed fuses, I suggest replacing them as vibration can cause internal failure. AGX is the type used, and most auto parts stores can get them for you.

Clean the fuse holder clips, looking for signs of overheating(discolored insulation, signs of melting). I use metal polish on a cotton swab, followed by spraying another clean swab with the De-Oxit DN5 and then rubbing the inside of the fuse clip.

All battery cables must be clean and tight for maximum current transfer. Check the cables going from the Negative(-) battery terminal/post to the engine mounting bolt

Also the one going from the Positive(+) terminal to the starter solenoid and from there to the starter motor.

If any battery cable feels ”Crunchy” when flexed, replace it as possible corrosion is inside the insulation.

Each "Bullet Connector" will have to be sprayed to ensure good connectivity, especially the ones going to the energizing coil of the starter solenoid.

The alternator output “Bullet Connectors” are usually behind the engine sprocket cover and will need inspecting and cleaning too.

The turn signal light sockets will benefit from a spritz from the contact cleaner along with the tail light/brake light socket.

Some brake light switches can be sprayed on the actuating rod, with the spray running down inside to the electrical contacts, others may be sealed requiring replacement if the switch is intermittent in operation.

Some people put the Di-Electric Grease on cleaned terminations/connectors, I don’t, as I’ve read/heard it can cause problems when it gets hot, actually insulating the connections, so the choice is yours to use or not.

I think I've covered about all of the electrical systems on the bike.........


“I spent a weekend going through every electrical connection and switch on the bike with a little scotchbrite pad and DeOxit - what a difference! Everything was brighter, gauge backlights, indicator lights, turn signals, I was getting a nicer spark, it fired up quicker, etc. Well worth my time. WELL worth it! “
From a forum member at www.kzrider.com


Re: Cleaning the many and various Motorcycle electrics.
I used the De-oxit D-5 spray on all the electrical connections of my 78 Kz1000 that had sat for twenty years .

When I parked the bike in 92 I was starting to have troubles with some of the electrical system, but after pulling everything apart and giving it a spray , reconnecting the connectors and working them back and forth a few times, then gave them another shot of spray to wash them off before the final reconnection.

Everything still works perfectly and has for over 7000 miles this year.

I am extremely happy with the results , a lot of the connectors were green when I started and after the cleaning they looked new ( shiny gold )

I found the Deoxit D-series, D-5 spray in a 4 oz can at a big electronics store called Frys in Illinois, don't get the small cans at Radio Shack , they are different and meant for computer type stuff.

store.caig.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.188/.f

Trust MFolks , the guy's a true rocket scientist and really knows what he's talking about.
JD

For a stronger starter motor, read this:


Using a stronger Honda starter motor in a Kawasaki

Buda from the www.kzrider.com forum wrote:

Will not turn the engine over....10.25 10 1 comp 1170 cc......took starter out and ran it with a battery....the starter spins strong but starts to squeal after a second.....also the shaft has a lot of play side to side. Bad starter I’m guessing What do you guys think?

Took the starter apart.....the bushing on the drive end is cracked

MFolks Wrote:
For a stronger starter motor, read this:

Using a Honda Mitsuba SM-220 Starter in the Kz (copied from the KZ rider website)

The CB F's used 2 different starters. Look for the one marked .8kw. They also have one that is .7kw. This owner noticed a difference when he installed his. He read that you can remove the outer housing, and rotate it. this will re-align the outer power terminal, to a better location. if you don’t do this, you will need to grind some metal from the chain cover to gain clearance. Also install a heavier gauge wire to the starter , I’d recommend 6 AWG(American Wire Gauge) welding cable with the correct terminal ends to match the treaded studs for the solenoid and starter motor. Don’t forget the cable from the battery to the solenoid.

The stock KZ starter is .6kw in size

www.stockers.com/index.php?dt=HS-29 (Mitsuba SM-220)

Buda Wrote:
Thanks MFolks, Just ordered the rebuild kit before I read your post....If that doesn't work out I'll give the Honda starter a shot.

Got a the Honda starter MFolks recommended (SM 220 12 volt 0.8 KW) on ebay...hell of a difference.....Turns over like the plugs are missing....I'm sure the new battery doesn't hurt, but its a hell of a difference.

Well as you know, you have a charging issue. But you may be also overloading the stock system. These make 20 AMPS output MAX. As MFolks said, you can buy a overwound stator, which will supply more amperage. Basically you need to find out your demand/ draw of current for the electrical you have in place. You can use an Ampmeter, or Amp Clamp for that. Best to test the stator for AC output on each combo of the three yellow wires coming out of the stator, where it would go into the R/R. See if it is making 56 acv on each pair of the three yellows. You may have a problem with the winding already, or while rare you could have a problem with the magnets on the rotor.
But if you need more than the output of the overwound stator, you may need to add an additional drive pulley and a Alternator like a GM one wire to your Trike.

The bike should be charging between 14-15v at around 1600 rpm. If that is not the case, use the Kawasaki Service Manual instructions to isolate the problem. Fix the charging system and then see if the problem goes away. Ed

Okay, I've gone through the diagnostics and I have a few questions. At what RPM should you have 56VAC across each of the yellow wires? The manual isn't clear about this. At idle I only had about 23VAC, at about 3000rpm it went up to about 63VAC? I did the resistance check and came up around 0.6 ohm on each combination measured at the red connector for the regulator (spec max is 0.54 so not far off). Then the diagnostics for the regulator, you are supposed to measure at least 10x the resistance in one direction vs the other for the pairs. For one direction I basically got infinite resistance on all 3 pairs? While this is certainly more than 10x, is this normal? When I plugged the regulator back in while it was running the engine started working harder and the lights actually dimmed? Is that normal? I can appreciate that an alternator puts a load on the engine but I wouldn't expect the headlights to be brighter running off the battery alone as opposed to the alternator+battery. I unplugged 1 of the headlight and the other got brighter. With both headlights unplugged and none of the fans on, the battery voltage at idle was only about 13.8V. So it's pretty clear I have a charging issue but I don't feel like I have a smoking gun as to if the alternator/stator is bad, the regulator/rectifier is bad, or I simply have too high a draw for the stock system. I'm guessing my next move is to just replace the stator with an over-wound unit and the regulator with a matching upgraded unit to be sure I am maximizing the system. Any other thoughts? Any feedback on the option of one of the charging systems from the old KZ1100 police bikes? Is that even an option?

danwyke wrote: ....... With both headlights unplugged and none of the fans on, the battery voltage at idle was only about 13.8V. So it's pretty clear I have a charging issue .......

Really? What does your manual tell you the voltage should be at idle and what voltage did you expect at idle? Are you idling at about 1,000 rpm or is your idle set way high?

Again:

The bike should be charging between 14-15v at around 1600 rpm (that is not at idle). If that is not the case, use the Kawasaki Service Manual instructions to isolate the problem. Fix the charging system and then see if the problem goes away.

Ed