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Spark plug CSI
- Archiddeon
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25 Jun 2011 18:11 #459321
by Archiddeon
1983 GPz 550
1985 Honda CH150 Scooter
1995 Suzuki GS500E
Spark plug CSI was created by Archiddeon
I pulled one of the plugs from my '83 GPz550 last night (had been sitting outside about a year before I got it, steady use before that ... apparently) and was wondering if anyone would like to offer some professional opinions on what to expect when I open the block.
I've attached a bunch of close-ups of the spark plug to help with the investigation/theorising.
My deductions would be: old plug (rust and eroded terminals) but running rich (black deposits around base of the plug). Maybe the plug is too hot for the engine? Not sure about the crud in the threads. There looks to be a small piece missing from the top electrode ... which is worrying.
What do you think?
Thanks all
Full view, it's a "Champion" brand, didn't check the part number. Heavy rust.
Close up showing the dirty thread. The light spot on the top terminal is where a piece appears to be missing?!
Nice shot of the top of the plug. Can clearly see the missing piece. Eek! Did it end up inside the engine?!
Another top shot. Electrodes don't look melted, just old and worn would be my guess. But then this is my first spark plug analysis
I've attached a bunch of close-ups of the spark plug to help with the investigation/theorising.
My deductions would be: old plug (rust and eroded terminals) but running rich (black deposits around base of the plug). Maybe the plug is too hot for the engine? Not sure about the crud in the threads. There looks to be a small piece missing from the top electrode ... which is worrying.
What do you think?
Thanks all
Full view, it's a "Champion" brand, didn't check the part number. Heavy rust.
Attachment sparkplug1.jpg not found
Close up showing the dirty thread. The light spot on the top terminal is where a piece appears to be missing?!
Attachment sparkplug2.jpg not found
Nice shot of the top of the plug. Can clearly see the missing piece. Eek! Did it end up inside the engine?!
Attachment sparkplug3.jpg not found
Another top shot. Electrodes don't look melted, just old and worn would be my guess. But then this is my first spark plug analysis
Attachment sparkplug4.jpg not found
1983 GPz 550
1985 Honda CH150 Scooter
1995 Suzuki GS500E
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- 650ed
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25 Jun 2011 18:36 #459323
by 650ed
1977 KZ650-C1 Original Owner - Stock (with additional invisible FIAMM horn)
Replied by 650ed on topic Spark plug CSI
Why "open the block?"
1977 KZ650-C1 Original Owner - Stock (with additional invisible FIAMM horn)
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- Archiddeon
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25 Jun 2011 18:45 #459324
by Archiddeon
1983 GPz 550
1985 Honda CH150 Scooter
1995 Suzuki GS500E
Replied by Archiddeon on topic Spark plug CSI
I'm a little hesitant to try firing the bike up without having a look at the internals first. It's been fairly badly abused cosmetically, so not sure what condition the inside is in and would rather find out about problems with the engine off than revving up
But by that comment you think those are decent looking, but old, plugs?
But by that comment you think those are decent looking, but old, plugs?
1983 GPz 550
1985 Honda CH150 Scooter
1995 Suzuki GS500E
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25 Jun 2011 19:05 #459327
by 650ed
1977 KZ650-C1 Original Owner - Stock (with additional invisible FIAMM horn)
Replied by 650ed on topic Spark plug CSI
Looking at those plugs I'd guess the previous owner thought maintenance was a 4-letter word. I would be tempted to pull the plugs (they need to be replaced in any event) squirt a little shot of lube in each cylinder, and with the plugs still out turn the engine over slowly by hand to see if I could feel any roughness as the pistons move up & down. If they move freely, I would do a compression test, and if the compression was good I wouldn't bother dismantling the engine. Ed
1977 KZ650-C1 Original Owner - Stock (with additional invisible FIAMM horn)
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- MFolks
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25 Jun 2011 19:23 #459331
by MFolks
1982 GPZ1100 B2
General Dynamics/Convair 1983-1993
GLCM BGM-109 Tomahawk, AGM-129A Advanced Cruise Missile (ACM)
Replied by MFolks on topic Spark plug CSI
If the compression is way down(80 PSI or more) the engine might run but won't have a lot of power.
New/rebuilt engines can have 180 PSI or more, put a few years on it and 160 PSI is about all you'll see.
If you pull it down for overhaul, don't forget new valve stem seals as they get brittle and don't seal well, causing oil burning/plug fouling.
New/rebuilt engines can have 180 PSI or more, put a few years on it and 160 PSI is about all you'll see.
If you pull it down for overhaul, don't forget new valve stem seals as they get brittle and don't seal well, causing oil burning/plug fouling.
1982 GPZ1100 B2
General Dynamics/Convair 1983-1993
GLCM BGM-109 Tomahawk, AGM-129A Advanced Cruise Missile (ACM)
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- Motor Head
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- FIX UP YOUR BIKE RIGHT AND CHEAP
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25 Jun 2011 21:06 #459351
by Motor Head
1982 KZ1000LTD K2 Vance & Hines 4-1 ACCEL COILS Added Vetter fairing & Bags. FOX Racing rear Shocks, Braced Swing-arm, Fork Brace, Progressive Fork Springs RT Gold Emulators, APE Valve Springs, 1166 Big Bore kit, RS34's, GPZ cams.
1980 KZ550LTD C1 Stock SOLD Miss it
1979 MAZDA RX7 in the works, 13B...
Replied by Motor Head on topic Spark plug CSI
While you didn't post the mileage on the Odometer, it may not be accurate anyway.
That first picture looks like a plug that is oil fouled, that may be why it was parked, years ago. Those others have quite a bit of deposits, from oil that has burned. IMO it would need the top end refurbished. Looks like that first plugs cylinder has a problem that will foul the plug with oil. Of course it could "Run" and just keep spare plugs handy.
That first picture looks like a plug that is oil fouled, that may be why it was parked, years ago. Those others have quite a bit of deposits, from oil that has burned. IMO it would need the top end refurbished. Looks like that first plugs cylinder has a problem that will foul the plug with oil. Of course it could "Run" and just keep spare plugs handy.
1982 KZ1000LTD K2 Vance & Hines 4-1 ACCEL COILS Added Vetter fairing & Bags. FOX Racing rear Shocks, Braced Swing-arm, Fork Brace, Progressive Fork Springs RT Gold Emulators, APE Valve Springs, 1166 Big Bore kit, RS34's, GPZ cams.
1980 KZ550LTD C1 Stock SOLD Miss it
1979 MAZDA RX7 in the works, 13B...
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- bountyhunter
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25 Jun 2011 22:04 #459361
by bountyhunter
1979 KZ-750 Twin
Replied by bountyhunter on topic Spark plug CSI
I'd try turning it over by hand (plugs out) to see if it turns smoothly. You can look down the holes with a light and see what's in there. Check compression. If it turns smooth and has decent compression, I would change the oil and filter, flush the fuel system and carbs and see if it runs.
1979 KZ-750 Twin
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- JR
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25 Jun 2011 23:35 #459374
by JR
1980 kz750E1, Delkevic exhaust
Replied by JR on topic Spark plug CSI
+1
and dont use Champion plugs like in the first photo. Get NGK or whatever is recommended in the manual. Champions dont seem to work well in motorcycles
and dont use Champion plugs like in the first photo. Get NGK or whatever is recommended in the manual. Champions dont seem to work well in motorcycles
1980 kz750E1, Delkevic exhaust
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- Archiddeon
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26 Jun 2011 03:30 #459394
by Archiddeon
1983 GPz 550
1985 Honda CH150 Scooter
1995 Suzuki GS500E
Replied by Archiddeon on topic Spark plug CSI
The knowledge and advice given on this forum never ceases to amaze me. Thank-you all for the invaluable input
1983 GPz 550
1985 Honda CH150 Scooter
1995 Suzuki GS500E
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- Archiddeon
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01 Jul 2011 19:12 #460528
by Archiddeon
1983 GPz 550
1985 Honda CH150 Scooter
1995 Suzuki GS500E
Replied by Archiddeon on topic Spark plug CSI
So a few days back I pulled out the plugs again and sprayed a generous amount of PB Blaster into each cylinder, then replaced the plugs.
This morning I removed the plugs again, pulled off the right-side engine cover to expose the end of the crankshaft and gave the 17mm nut (the manual was very specific about which one to try turn) a few clockwise turns to get the pistons moving.
The cover removed ... interesting gasket :huh:
Clearly I'm not the first one in here, someone had some fun with this screw!
So, how'd it turn ... well it turned. A little stiff at irst but loosened up as I kept cranking it over. It's smoother at some parts of the cycle than others, but not what I would describe as smooth. Looking in through the spark plug holes, I could see the tops of the pistons covered in a nasty black deposit. Out of curiosity, I pulled off the two smog valve covers ...
The following images may be disturbing to sensitive viewers
The entire inside of the valve assembling is coated in a layer of soft, oily deposit about 1/16 - 1/8" thick. I'm surprised this bike could even run with such a rich mix!
Right side
Close up of the top
Close up of the bottom
Small scraping through the muck
So given the level of deposits, what do you all think I should do? Even bother with a compression test? I'm going to need to open her up to clean the cylinders and pistons anyway, right?
Thanks
This morning I removed the plugs again, pulled off the right-side engine cover to expose the end of the crankshaft and gave the 17mm nut (the manual was very specific about which one to try turn) a few clockwise turns to get the pistons moving.
The cover removed ... interesting gasket :huh:
Attachment behind_side_cover.jpg not found
Clearly I'm not the first one in here, someone had some fun with this screw!
Attachment mangled_screw.jpg not found
So, how'd it turn ... well it turned. A little stiff at irst but loosened up as I kept cranking it over. It's smoother at some parts of the cycle than others, but not what I would describe as smooth. Looking in through the spark plug holes, I could see the tops of the pistons covered in a nasty black deposit. Out of curiosity, I pulled off the two smog valve covers ...
The following images may be disturbing to sensitive viewers
The entire inside of the valve assembling is coated in a layer of soft, oily deposit about 1/16 - 1/8" thick. I'm surprised this bike could even run with such a rich mix!
Right side
Attachment right_side_valves.jpg not found
Close up of the top
Attachment right_side_closeup.jpg not found
Close up of the bottom
Attachment right_side_bottom.jpg not found
Small scraping through the muck
Attachment right_side_scraping.jpg not found
So given the level of deposits, what do you all think I should do? Even bother with a compression test? I'm going to need to open her up to clean the cylinders and pistons anyway, right?
Thanks
1983 GPz 550
1985 Honda CH150 Scooter
1995 Suzuki GS500E
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- MFolks
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01 Jul 2011 19:41 #460536
by MFolks
1982 GPZ1100 B2
General Dynamics/Convair 1983-1993
GLCM BGM-109 Tomahawk, AGM-129A Advanced Cruise Missile (ACM)
Replied by MFolks on topic Spark plug CSI
It looks like an abused horse ("Rode hard and put away wet")I'd be doing a compression check to see the condition of each cylinder, then check the valve clearances(I'd be surprised if a few arn't open with zero clearance.
What you've got in your hand at the bottom of the picture is the reed valves for the "Smog Gear" Kawasaki designed for a cleaner burning engine. They called it the "Kawasaki Clean Air Suction System"(KCASS). Most riders here in the states have removed this sytem and installed block off plates, capping off the vacuum lines and hose openings.
Smog Block Off Plates
www.tpoparts.com (Comes as a kit, with the plates,vinyl plugs & rubber caps for vacuum lines)
www.kzzone.com/billet.html
Check with these websites as they may not have the plates for your bike. If you know a friend with a CNC mill. he might be able to make you plates using your old ones as a template for new ones. I'd think some Aluminum 1/8" 6061 T6 will work for this.
What you've got in your hand at the bottom of the picture is the reed valves for the "Smog Gear" Kawasaki designed for a cleaner burning engine. They called it the "Kawasaki Clean Air Suction System"(KCASS). Most riders here in the states have removed this sytem and installed block off plates, capping off the vacuum lines and hose openings.
Smog Block Off Plates
www.tpoparts.com (Comes as a kit, with the plates,vinyl plugs & rubber caps for vacuum lines)
www.kzzone.com/billet.html
Check with these websites as they may not have the plates for your bike. If you know a friend with a CNC mill. he might be able to make you plates using your old ones as a template for new ones. I'd think some Aluminum 1/8" 6061 T6 will work for this.
1982 GPZ1100 B2
General Dynamics/Convair 1983-1993
GLCM BGM-109 Tomahawk, AGM-129A Advanced Cruise Missile (ACM)
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- Archiddeon
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06 Jul 2011 15:28 #461343
by Archiddeon
1983 GPz 550
1985 Honda CH150 Scooter
1995 Suzuki GS500E
Replied by Archiddeon on topic Spark plug CSI
Measurements of valve spacings taken ... continued in engine section:
kzrider.com/forum/2-engine/461342-engine-csi
1983 GPz 550
1985 Honda CH150 Scooter
1995 Suzuki GS500E
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