TOPIC:

Hello All,

This is my first post, other than my introduction:
kzrider.com/component/option,com_joomlab...w/id,38272/catid,10/

This is about a 1980 kz650 which has run correctly until it has been stored for the winter. Now it would not start.

Checked for spark. There was no spark neither from the 1,4 coil nor from the 2,3 coil. BTW, the bike has the green DYNA coils.

Then I discovered this site !!
I read many interesting posts in this section of the forum regarding spark and coil issues. Here is what I have done so far this morning as a beginning of troubleshooting this issue. The steps I have followed are coming from some posts made by wiredgeorge:
kzrider.com/component/option,com_joomlab...ew/id,13972/catid,4/


Continuity on the 3 fuses are good.

Key switched at "on", I have 12.3V at the power wire (pink/yellow) going to both coils.

Setting the multimeter to the 200ohm position, both coils gave 00.3 as result when the leads were connected to the green (or black) and the pink/yellow wires to the coil. Does that correspond to the 3.8 value of wiredgeorge ? (he wrote to set the multimeter to the lowest value, mine is 200, but I guess a multimeter with a "20" value would result in 3.x instead of 00.3 with the value set to 200.....)

Setting the multimeter to the 20k ohms positions, boths coils gave 0.85 as result when the leads were connected to the ends of the coil were the spark plug wires are usually connected to. This is far from the 13k value given by wiredgeorge. How far is it ? Are the green coils I have the "dyna 3ohms" or another type of dyna coils ? Wouldnt it be surprising that both coils became bad at the same time ?

This is what I have done so far.

Any help is appreciated.

Regards,
Syd

Post edited by: Syd, at: 2006/04/11 20:40

Syd, Since I seem to have confused this issue by something I wrote in the past, I guess I will jump in and try and help. I don't look at all the sections of this board as much as I used to and for quicker help, try my carb forum on my web site. I look in there at least a couple times a day.

First, the voltage check says you have voltage at your coils. Your green colored coils are called "3 ohms" coils. This means 3 ohm primary resistance. As is the case with most 3 ohms coils, they will actually be closer to 4 ohms. You test this by putting your mutlimeter on OHMS and putting your probes on the two small lugs on each coil and measuring the resistance of the primary windings. You can also measure the secondary windings (to check for shorts) by putting the meter into the 20K ohms scale and putting the probes on the contacts where the plug wires go AFTER you have removed the wires. I bet your coils are fine...

FIRST... How do you know you have no spark? What "test" did you run to determine this.

SECOND... what type ignition do you have? Points? Dyna S? Other?

THIRD... when you tried to start the bike, did you check to see if there was gas in the float bowls? Did you pull a plug to see if it is wet?

A little more info and we can get to the bottom of this... if you respond, and I don't seem to get back on this board, drop in on my carbs forum... won't hurt to have a non-carb related question I guess.

wiredgeorge,

thanks for replying.


wiredgeorge wrote:

FIRST... How do you know you have no spark? What "test" did you run to determine this.

For each spark plug wire:I have disconnected spark plug wire from spark plug, plugged in a brand new spark plug (easier/faster than using the bike's plugs), grounded the plug to the engine (valve cover bolt precisely) and tried to start the bike. Seeing no spark for every wire, I even touched the spark plug with my fingers while trying to start to make sure there would not be a spark I would not see.. never got caught by any voltage

SECOND... what type ignition do you have? Points? Dyna S? Other?

points. When trying to start the bike, the test light blinks when touching either the green or black wires at the points/condensor location.

THIRD... when you tried to start the bike, did you check to see if there was gas in the float bowls? Did you pull a plug to see if it is wet?

The first test I made when I realized the bike was not starting is the spark test described above. Since this test failed, I felt I would make sure there would be spark before making sure there was fuel. So I have not checked anything fuel-related. I even have not removed any of the bike's spark plugs.

A little more info and we can get to the bottom of this... if you respond, and I don't seem to get back on this board, drop in on my carbs forum... won't hurt to have a non-carb related question I guess.

I will write a quick note on your forum right away.

Your help is appreciated.

Syd

Post edited by: Syd, at: 2006/04/10 15:24

Post edited by: Syd, at: 2006/04/10 15:27

Is your kill switch turned on? That gets more people than you think!

Tazzmann wrote:

Is your kill switch turned on? That gets more people than you think!

Good suggestion. In his first post he does say that he has 12.3V going to both coils. That power is controlled by the kill switch and is the one thing in the circuit common to both coils so it's sensible to start there first.

I could see one capacitor or point set going bad or fouling as a result of setting for a time, but both? Stranger things have happened.

Syd, check the wiring over very carefully and look for bad connections. If need be, I can scan and get you a wiring diagram for the E1/F1 models if you can't find one elsewhere.

- Nate >>

Good point N0NB, I didn't catch that I guess the first time I read it.

Anyway, the 650's don't have much in the way of getting power to the spark plugs. You have the battery, ignition switch, the kill switch, some have a clutch switch (so you have to have the clutch pulled in), fuse, points/condensers (or electronic ignition on some), coils, plug wires and spark plugs. It has to be in one of those areas.

I DO know that if your battery doesn't have enough juice, the coils won't fire. Have you checked the battery with a hydrometer?

Key switched at "on", I have 12.3V at the power wire (pink/yellow) going to both coils.

That pretty well eliminates the kill switch and every other thing in the power ciruit, and means the problem is between the coils and the points.
To verify that, take the points cover off and turn the crank (use the big nut on the end of the crank (15mm I think) NOT the small nut) untill one set of points is closed, then check the voltage at the negative (points wire) side of both coils with the key on. If you have 10-12 volts at both coils on the negative side, then there is no connection between the negative side of the coils and ground (through the points).
Simpler to just measure the resistance between the negative side of each coil and the wire where it connects to the points though, then measure the resistance from the wire where it connects to the points and ground (with the points closed). With the key off both ways.

My guess is that the point contacts are burnt/corroded, because there are two separate circuits involved (two coils, two wires. two points) and the fact this happened after sitting for a long time. Anyway you cut it, you are missing a ground

Post edited by: steell, at: 2006/04/11 01:06

Thanks to all for your suggestions.

Tazzmann wrote:

Is your kill switch turned on? That gets more people than you think!

The kill switch is to the "Run" position. The bike is cranking..

A ty-wrap takes care of the clutch switch for now also

N0NB wrote:

I could see one capacitor or point set going bad or fouling as a result of setting for a time, but both? Stranger things have happened.

NONB, is "capacitor" a synonym for "condensor" ?

N0NB wrote:

Syd, check the wiring over very carefully and look for bad connections. If need be, I can scan and get you a wiring diagram for the E1/F1 models if you can't find one elsewhere.

I have inspected pretty much every connections. Other than the one coming from the generator to the regulator/rectifier which has melted a little, everything is fine. Thanks for your offer for the wiring diagram, I have found one at the japanese web site: www.kt.rim.or.jp/~michiaki/z650/maintenance.html#wiring


Tazzmann wrote:

I DO know that if your battery doesn't have enough juice, the coils won't fire. Have you checked the battery with a hydrometer?

The battery has been under a constant 1A low charge since a couple of days. When charged, it crank pretty fast..


Steell, I will go right away in the garage and follow the steps you mentionned. Will let you guys know about my results.

Cheers,
Syd

steell wrote:

That pretty well eliminates the kill switch and every other thing in the power ciruit, and means the problem is between the coils and the points.
To verify that, take the points cover off and turn the crank (use the big nut on the end of the crank (15mm I think) NOT the small nut) untill one set of points is closed, then check the voltage at the negative (points wire) side of both coils with the key on. If you have 10-12 volts at both coils on the negative side, then there is no connection between the negative side of the coils and ground (through the points).

Point connected to green wire (right side (or front)) closed:
Voltage black wire (coil 1,4): 10V
Voltage green wire (coil 2,3): 3.7V

Point connected to black wire (left side (or rear)) closed:
Voltage black wire (coil 1,4): 3.1V
Voltage green wire (coil 2,3): 9.9V

I'm not sure to understand if your last sentence means I should or should NOT get a connection between the neg. side of the coils and ground ?

Simpler to just measure the resistance between the negative side of each coil and the wire where it connects to the points though,

I got 0 ohm for each connection

then measure the resistance from the wire where it connects to the points and ground (with the points closed). With the key off both ways.

Now the results become interesting:

Point located at the right side (or front) CLOSED:
wire that connects to point to ground: 1.1 ohm
wire that connects to other point (opened) to ground: 0.0 ohm

Point located at the left side (or rear) CLOSED:
wire that connects to point to ground: 6.2 ohm
wire that connects to other point (opened) to ground: 6.2 ohm

And then I realized that the gap of the point located at the right side (front) was less (.006) than the other (.012). What should be the correct gap ?
Is that why there is that much resistance with the right side point even if it is opened ? Should I have 0 ohm when opened, as I have on the left side point ?

also, I guess it is normal that the point that is closed when the key is turned on gets quite hot ?

Syd

Post edited by: Syd, at: 2006/04/11 09:19

Your point gap should be .3-.4mm or .012-.016 inches

Problem is solved!

I re-gaped the point that was off spec (thanks tazzmann!) and moreover, cleaned the contacts of the points. I should have done this in the beginning

The bike sparked right after.

THANKS TO ALL WHO OFFERED THEIR ADVICES !!!

Syd

Post edited by: Syd, at: 2006/04/11 20:37

Great! I haven't owned any points/condensors for years so have trouble troubleshooting these bits. I use electronic ignitions in all my bikes. I wanted to point out one thing... there are Two nuts on the end end of your mechanical advance retaining bolt. the inner and larger is 17mm head and the smaller and outer is 14mm. The small just tightens the bolt. The larger is keyed on the advance/crank and is used for engine turning. I like to use a 12 point socket and ratchet wrench and not use a box wrench on this nut to turn the engine as the wrench easily slips off and can damage stuff in the area. Also, remove your plugs when turning over the engine by hand to reduce compression.