Carb boots: am I getting screwed?

Double Post

Post edited by: seanof30306, at: 2007/09/08 07:45

I believe the service manual for your bike is available somewhere on this site. If not, www.repairmanualclub.com probably has it as well.

It's been about 15 years since I tuned up a KZ, but as I recall, with the points ignition, you pull off the points cover and shine the timing light in on the top of the rotor. You will have two 1,4 T/F marks and two 2,3 T/F marks. Plug your timing light lead into the #4 plug wire and line up the 1,4 mark at idle, then the second 1,4 mark at (I think) 3500 RPM or more to check the timing advance. Then do the same for the 2,3 timing marks (hooked up to the #3 plug wire). Again, it's been awhile so my post may not be 100%.

All this being said, if the bike hasn't put you into the poorhouse yet, perhaps going electronic is the way to go. The one-time purchase of the new ignition will probably end up cheaper in the long run anyway. As well, the points are a pain in the a@s - used to enjoy tuning the bike every couple of weeks when I was young, had no wife and no kids, and actually had lots of money and time (things are diferent now.

have you rechecked your timing yet?i have a 650 with a mac 4 to 1 exhaust and pods with a dyno jet jet kit used the 118 jets and a 19.5 pilot jet it runs great!

have you rechecked your timing yet?i have a 650 with a mac 4 to 1 exhaust and pods with a dyno jet jet kit used the 118 jets and a 19.5 pilot jet it runs great!

I have not yet checked the timing, but I did ride it about 100 miles today. Here's what I found.

It takes full choke to start it when cold, even when 80 degrees outside. I let it warm up for close to 2 minutes before riding it. It still coughed and sputtered for a LONG time at low rpm/throttle. I know these are bikes are cold-natured, is this normal?

Once completely warmed up, with the choke off, it idled at 2000 rpm, for the most part. Every now and then it would drop down and idle at 12-1500 or so, but that was very infrequent. Also, when letting off the throttle completely after cruising for awhile, it would often idle at 3000 rpm, and stay there till I'd blip the throttle. It would then slowly go back down to 2000 rpm. Other times, it would sit at 3000 rpm for a second, then slowly go down to 2000 rpm on it's own. Other times it would drop right back to the normal 2000 rpm idle.

No matter how long I rode it, it still had a major stumble/bog when rolling off of a dead stop. I had to either rev the hell out of it, or slip the clutch big time every time I started from a dead stop.

Once rolling, it was ok, for the most part. Every now and then it would surge a bit, and it popped and spit occasionally.

When I shut it off hot, it was a crapshoot as to whether it would restart. Sometimes it would start right away, but, it would start rough, and I'd have to blip the throttle a few times to get it to run right. Other times it wouldn't start at all for a minute or so.

Also, I could still hear the cam chain; sometimes more than others. That was what started this whole thing. The cam chain was so loose it would actually make a "catching" sound and the engine would stumble. The guy who worked on it originally suspected it had slipped time, or maybe worse. While we were listening to it in the parking lot the day I brought it over, it "caught", shut off, and wouldn't restart. He said he was afraid it had dropped a valve. When he got into it, he told me it was only the automatic cam chain tensioner being "frozen up". He said he'd fixed it. If so, should I still be able to hear the cam chain?

I checked the invoice closely, and it says they put in new plugs and spark plug caps, a point backing plate, set the points and timing, etc. It looks to me like the only thing in the ignition they haven't addressed is the coils.

I'm going to go see them on Monday and try to work this out with them. I want to gather as much information as I can before I go, though. I paid for this with a credit card, and have talked to the credit card company to see what my options are. I can dispute the charges, get a written statement from another mechanic saying the work was done improperly, and have enough taken off of their charges to cover having their work corrected. I hate to do that, though, and will try everything I can to negotiate with them before doing so.

Post edited by: seanof30306, at: 2007/09/09 03:55

NEVER TAKE YOUR BIKE BACK TO THESE PEOPLE. Who are they?If you are not confident to tackle this yourself, find a good mechanic. This makes me sick. These people are CROOKS.

Motorcycle shops and music stores are the bane of my existence, which is why I learned to work on my own stuff in the first place.

If you want something done right, learn how to do it yourself. I'm very grateful for forums like this where I can learn how stuff works and what to do when it doesn't...

Ready to help, but getting lost in the drama. So a few questions should set the issue straight:

1) from what I understand, the bike did run/idle before the shop got it. Am I correct in this assumtion??

2) What work did they do: the cam chain tensioner I got.


Points I can make:

1)idling should not be at 3K. Even with pods and unjetted carbs I could idle.

2) The popping/cracking/driving your bike any more will probably damage it more.

3) Ignition is not going to make your motor run at 3K for idle, maybe the advance plate I agree. I'm not the wiz at points anymore, but I cannot see points causing the idle up.

4) a dead (or improperly working coil) also will not make your bike idle @ 3k.

5) Fuel (and maybe the advance stuck) will make the bike run at super high idle and hard to start.

6) If the advance was stuck, it should not need choked for two minutes to idle. At least with good carbs, in my opinion.

7) Gurus: when does the ignition advance kick in. I thought it was at 3K, but he is settling down to 2K at some times.

So I think the carbs are goofed up. If they did the work, then they should fix it, but it never should have left their parking lot not right. That gives them the chance to say that it happened after.

So there are guys here that can help look at those carbs....

gpzrox wrote:

Ready to help, but getting lost in the drama. So a few questions should set the issue straight:

1) from what I understand, the bike did run/idle before the shop got it. Am I correct in this assumtion??

I bought the bike after it had sat up for close to a year. It ran, but poorly. It would not idle.

gpzrox wrote:

2) What work did they do: the cam chain tensioner I got.

Rebuild carbs

replace points backing plate

Fix cam chain tensioner / make sure it had not jumped time

replace tach drive

replace plugs, boots, and caps.


gpzrox wrote:

1)idling should not be at 3K. Even with pods and unjetted carbs I could idle.

Agreed. Idle is sticking at 3k. Idle was set at 2k. I turned the idle down to 1500, bike will not idle and runs even worse. Clearly, he left it at 2000 to get it out the door.

gpzrox wrote:

2) The popping/cracking/driving your bike any more will probably damage it more.

3) Ignition is not going to make your motor run at 3K for idle, maybe the advance plate I agree. I'm not the wiz at points anymore, but I cannot see points causing the idle up.

I agree

gpzrox wrote:

4) a dead (or improperly working coil) also will not make your bike idle @ 3k.

I agree. I don't think it would cause the high rpm problems, either. I've never known a coil to work at low rpms, and to not work at high rpms. additionally, I've pulled the plug wires off, one at a time, to see if maybe a coil is dead or weak on one or two cylinders. Doesn't appear so.

gpzrox wrote:

5) Fuel (and maybe the advance stuck) will make the bike run at super high idle and hard to start.

Fuel is good. It had fresh fuel in it before, I ran it nearly dry on Saturday and refilled it. No change. With his having replaced the backing plate, I'd assume he'd have looked at the advance. It's possible, though, and I'll look into it.

gpzrox wrote:

6) If the advance was stuck, it should not need choked for two minutes to idle. At least with good carbs, in my opinion.

Agreed

gpzrox wrote:

7) Gurus: when does the ignition advance kick in. I thought it was at 3K, but he is settling down to 2K at some times.

In a car, the advance curve would kick in between 2500 and 3000. Not sure on a bike.

gpzrox wrote:

So I think the carbs are goofed up. If they did the work, then they should fix it, but it never should have left their parking lot not right. That gives them the chance to say that it happened after.

On my way to take it back now.

gpzrox wrote:

So there are guys here that can help look at those carbs....

Thanks for the help.

OK, took it back to the shop today. Went over everything that is wrong.

As soon as he listened to it, the guy said it was clear the cam chain was making a ton of noise. He said he'd found the cam chain tensioner frozen up and all carboned up from the oil not being changed when he'd worked on the bike.

He said his repair clearly had not solved the problem, and the tensioner should be replaced. He suggested a used one that he believes they'll have on-hand. Is this the sort of part where a used one is not that potentially problematic? I hate the idea of possibly having to fix this again in a few thousand miles, but, I'm sure the part will be expensive as hell from Kawasaki, and there will be a wait of at least a week on it from them. Honestly, the wait bothers me more than the cost.

He also said the off-the line bog, low speed stumbling, not idling below 2000 rpm, and the idle sticking at 3000 rpm could all be related to the cam chain tensioner problem, so, he wanted to fix that before he went back into the carbs. Makes sense to me on everything but the idle hanging up at 3000 rpm, but, it doesn't make sense to address that until the cam chain tensioner is fixed, regardless.

I told him I'd talked to a number of people about the skipping at 5500+, and was convinced the problem was jetting, not needing slide modifications. I offered to put him in touch with half a dozen KZ650 owners with 4-1 exhausts and pods whose bikes were running fine without having to go into the slides. He really didn't have anything to say.

Despite the fact that, before I picked the bike up, he'd told me on the phone that the carbs had already been properly jetted for the 4-1 and pods, he now says he drilled out the main and pilot jets to get the jetting right. He also said the main jet was a 125 (before he drilled it); he doesn't remember what the pilot jet was. Sounds kinda shady to me. Is drilling jets out a common practice?

I'm also wondering about the accelerator pumps.

First, I looked them up, and the kits he used were for 77-78 models, so there wouldn't have been parts in the kits for the pumps, right?

Second, do the accelerator pumps shoot a single shot when the throttle is rolled on, or do they shoot a constant stream as long as the throttle is at WOT? I'm wondering if the skipping problems at 5500+ rpm could be related to the accelerator pumps, rather than the main jets.

On a car, there are either screws to adjust, or springs you can change out to tune the accelerator pump shots. When I asked the guy working on the bike about it, he said there were tabs you bend on these to make the adjustments. I don't understand that. Can someone help?

Post edited by: seanof30306, at: 2007/09/12 08:23

77 and 78's didn't have the pumps so it doesn't seem that they would be in the kit,,, I think they are a seperate item and aren't included in any kits but as usual I may be wrong there.
they only squirt when you roll the throttle to enrichen the mixture to help avoid a stumble when accelerating.
drilling the jets has been done before, shouldn't be a problem if done right and to the right size.
getting the slack out of the timing chain first is a good idea before doing the other work.
I hope he gets it right for you this time,, good luck.
Ride safe