Metal in oil

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Re: Metal in oil

15 Nov 2006 05:53
#92252
baldy110 wrote:
I thought the same thing regarding the residual metal so I split the cases and cleaned everything. I even took all the gears off ther shafts and cleaned everything. It was spotless when I put is all back together.
I also thought it might be the clutch plates but I have seen a lot of oil contaminated by clutch plate residue and this aint it. I am getting very small slivers of aluminum. You can see it floating around in the oil and it settles on the bottom of the container. This bike does not have an oil filter, I wish it did it would make finding the source easier. Honda simply put in a small screen right before the oil pump pickup
Now what has me really confused is the amount of metal. After the first rebuild, yes I have taken this thing apart four times in the last month I fired up the engine and ran it for about 30 seconds. I drained the oild and there was a laot of metal in just 30 seconds of running. You would think that the source would be pretty easy to spot with the amount of metal it was making but so far I can't find it. I have been rebuilding all types of motorcycle engines for a long time and this one has me stumped.

Well I'm puzzled. No oil filter? A Honda XR500R? What year 81,82,83 or 84? They all had oil filters as I remember.

Since you have been working on bikes a long time and all, I'd have to say you probably tank washed the parts as that is the only way to get all of the little bits out of there for sure. Assuming that, I'd be most suspicious of the cam chain tensioner or guide. Assuming you checked the bits to be sure they aren't steel or some polymer (I thought the tensioner had nylon used in it, can't remember)then the cam chain pathway would be my first guess.

Now that you have "floater" bits you won't get them out easy with a drain. I'd check the cam chain pathway, change the oil and find the filter (still puzzled), then I'd ride it a while. Heck it's an air cooled dirt bike, it can take a lot of abuse outside and in! :laugh:

Post edited by: KZ_Rage, at: 2006/11/15 09:32
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Re: Metal in oil

15 Nov 2006 06:19
#92255
baldy110 wrote:
Not the cam journals either. That was the first thing I suspected. Cam and journals are in great shape. I cannot find any place in the engine the looks like rubbing except for the cam chain tunnel and I know I fixed that problem.

In any event, it seems certain that this motor's in for another teardown.

One idea that occurred to me was that while the motor's apart, you might want to apply a little "marking blue" - (sometimes also called "Engineer's Blue" or "layout blue") to the spots on ther innards where you suspect the chewing is going on. If you don't nail it this time, then at least you have another potential source of clues.

Go for the alchohol-based stuff. It should be oil-insoluable - and that's easy enough to test - do a test piece, let it dry thoroughly, heat up some oil and dip the piece.

Best of luck...

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Re: Metal in oil

15 Nov 2006 17:41
#92430
It's an 81 XR500R. Honda did not use oil filters on their dirtbikes until 1983. They used a simple screen to filter out the big stuff.
I have already used the blue dye trick. I even took the side covers off and attached a drill to the crank. I spun the engine with the drill and watched. The dye never showed anything. Like I said this one has me stumped.

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Re: Metal in oil

15 Nov 2006 18:39
#92444
Just a thought from left field (if the '81XR500R is dry sump with remote oil tank) and which you have probably long since already considered, so please forgive this swing and a miss -- it happens to me a lot. :P


Is it remotely possible that the aluminum particles from the original damage have collected in the remote oil tank and have not yet cleared from the system? :)
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Re: Metal in oil

15 Nov 2006 18:47
#92449
The only other thing I can think of is your front balancer chain or that they are remaining bits from the first go-around.

If it's still there after 2nd cleanout you might ask the guys on the thumper mailing list.

thumper@dorje.com

I don't recall if it's a listserve or majordomo mailng list
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Re: Metal in oil

15 Nov 2006 19:33
#92461
The engine is a wet sump, no oil tank. I have already asked the guys at "The Thumper page." They were of no help.
I'll re-check the front balancer. Thanks
I can't simply just run it this way. I wish I could, the problem is since there is no filter to filter out the aluminum particles they are free to float around. That is what causes the cam bearing journals to go bad on these, dirty or contaminated oil. That was a major issue with these motors when they came out. Owners did not do the required maintenance and oil changes regularly and they damaged the cam journals which detroyed the head. Good heads are hard to find and I don't want to take the chance of ruining my good ones.

Post edited by: baldy110, at: 2006/11/15 22:39

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Re: Metal in oil

16 Nov 2006 06:34
#92531
it just hit me
ae the flakes real small, like ground pepper size?
if cam chain is tired there may be a lot of aluminum between the pins and rollers. you'll never get it all out.
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Re: Metal in oil

16 Nov 2006 07:24
#92544
Checked with my buddy who used to own one and his was an 84 that had the filter, no filter on the 81-82 models, too bad as a filter would help somewhat.

By your description of the journal failure being what sounds like a common problem from metal chips floating around in there, that would lead one to believe that these engines have a design flaw that keeps making these bits rather easily. Either that or everything has to be perfect to avoid the problem. I don't know if there will be a fix if either one of those issues are true.

I still think the issue is in the cam chain pathway or some leftover bits that were hiding someplace unless this is common due to an inherent flaw of the 81-82 XR500R design.
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Re: Metal in oil

02 Dec 2006 16:48
#96877
Well I tore my engine down again and still did not find where it was making metal. I have 5 of these engines so I took the best parts from each one and put it all back to together. It fired on the first kick and is not making any metal. I guess I fixed it but I would have really liked to know what was wrong. Oh well as long as it works it's all good.

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Re: Metal in oil

02 Dec 2006 17:13
#96885
maybe run it a few miles and change oil just to make sure nothing works loose in there;)

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Re: Metal in oil

02 Dec 2006 18:36
#96913
Done that already, I've changed the oil three times in 30 minutes just to make sure, so far so good.

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Re: Metal in oil

02 Dec 2006 19:42
#96929
cool!;)

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