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Technical question - KZ400 S2 - How was horsepower lowered?
- elfolan
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18 Apr 2022 10:27 #865673
by elfolan
1976 KZ400 S2
Technical question - KZ400 S2 - How was horsepower lowered? was created by elfolan
Apologies if this is a repeated question! I tried searching with a few different terms but couldn't find this having already been asked.
I'm looking at the specs available on kz400.com for the 1976 model KZ400s and there's a note on the D3 image stating max horsepower was increased to 36HP
On the S2 image there's a similar note stating the max horsepower was lowered to 34HP.
Do we know how this change was achieved for the S2? I'm curious how making that change was helpful to Kawasaki at the time as it sounds like all the S2 changes were purely to reduce cost and not to meet a certain performance requirement. I would have expected something more along the lines of them skipping a more expensive machining process or gear size for the S2 and keeping it the same as the previous model over a specific change that reads like it gave the S2 a unique HP value.
Similarly, just because I'm interested - is it known how the D3 engine was changed to allow that small HP increase from the previous model?
Links to the source images I'm looking at below:
KZ400 D3 image
KZ400 S2 image
I'm looking at the specs available on kz400.com for the 1976 model KZ400s and there's a note on the D3 image stating max horsepower was increased to 36HP
On the S2 image there's a similar note stating the max horsepower was lowered to 34HP.
Do we know how this change was achieved for the S2? I'm curious how making that change was helpful to Kawasaki at the time as it sounds like all the S2 changes were purely to reduce cost and not to meet a certain performance requirement. I would have expected something more along the lines of them skipping a more expensive machining process or gear size for the S2 and keeping it the same as the previous model over a specific change that reads like it gave the S2 a unique HP value.
Similarly, just because I'm interested - is it known how the D3 engine was changed to allow that small HP increase from the previous model?
Links to the source images I'm looking at below:
KZ400 D3 image
KZ400 S2 image
1976 KZ400 S2
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- hugo
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18 Apr 2022 15:30 - 18 Apr 2022 15:33 #865700
by hugo
Replied by hugo on topic Technical question - KZ400 S2 - How was horsepower lowered?
No, this is not answering to your question, and if you don't like it just ignore it but...
Firstable, the listed HP is meaningless. It is only for advertisement purposes and different people would read different results, on same vehicle.
Secondly, even if real, 2 hp is insignificant. As if the 400 achieved 100 mph top speed, it may achieve only 99.8 mph. Who cares.........unless you are racing to a finish line which is an entirely different (an impractical matter).
HP means little to engineers. People like it because it relates to an animal we know...the horse. But in engineering terms, 1 HP does not equal the force of one horse. It is not even an expression of force. It is only a mathematical expression, from the steam engine era, to give an idea of the work an engine can achieve in a specific amount of time.
.................what really counts in everyday driving/riding, and from stop light to stop light is TORQUE. That is FORCE....rotational force actually., and that what gives the seat of the pant feel of power......if any.
Firstable, the listed HP is meaningless. It is only for advertisement purposes and different people would read different results, on same vehicle.
Secondly, even if real, 2 hp is insignificant. As if the 400 achieved 100 mph top speed, it may achieve only 99.8 mph. Who cares.........unless you are racing to a finish line which is an entirely different (an impractical matter).
HP means little to engineers. People like it because it relates to an animal we know...the horse. But in engineering terms, 1 HP does not equal the force of one horse. It is not even an expression of force. It is only a mathematical expression, from the steam engine era, to give an idea of the work an engine can achieve in a specific amount of time.
.................what really counts in everyday driving/riding, and from stop light to stop light is TORQUE. That is FORCE....rotational force actually., and that what gives the seat of the pant feel of power......if any.
Last edit: 18 Apr 2022 15:33 by hugo.
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18 Apr 2022 16:27 #865705
by elfolan
1976 KZ400 S2
Replied by elfolan on topic Technical question - KZ400 S2 - How was horsepower lowered?
Heya, thanks for taking the time.
I think the tiny, unnoticeable difference is part of what made me curious about those listed specs. When the bikes were developed, either the engineering department knew there was some reason the power produced by the engine (HP, Torque, kW, whatever measurement you want) was slightly less on the special model and that came out in the advertising specs. If that's the case I'm super curious about what core difference is that causes that.
If that wasn't the case then maybe the data was just fuzzy enough that the marketing department added that piece to upsell people to the Standard model. Entirely possible and less interesting but still a cool thing to know.
Thanks again!
I think the tiny, unnoticeable difference is part of what made me curious about those listed specs. When the bikes were developed, either the engineering department knew there was some reason the power produced by the engine (HP, Torque, kW, whatever measurement you want) was slightly less on the special model and that came out in the advertising specs. If that's the case I'm super curious about what core difference is that causes that.
If that wasn't the case then maybe the data was just fuzzy enough that the marketing department added that piece to upsell people to the Standard model. Entirely possible and less interesting but still a cool thing to know.
Thanks again!
1976 KZ400 S2
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18 Apr 2022 19:26 - 18 Apr 2022 19:27 #865722
by DOHC
The S2 description says 2-1 exhaust, while the D3 seems to have a 2-2 exhaust.
If that's correct, that could result in a different HP rating.
But even if the two models made the same power in reality, fitting a different exhaust system could also be used by the marketing folks to make the D3 seems just a bit more tempting by derating the lower cost S2 model. Anyone who buys the S2 isn't going to complain about a bit of extra power.
'78 Z1-R in blue , '78 Z1-R in black, '78 Z1-R in pieces
My dad's '74 Z1
'00 ZRX1100
Replied by DOHC on topic Technical question - KZ400 S2 - How was horsepower lowered?
Similarly, just because I'm interested - is it known how the D3 engine was changed to allow that small HP increase from the previous model?
The S2 description says 2-1 exhaust, while the D3 seems to have a 2-2 exhaust.
If that's correct, that could result in a different HP rating.
But even if the two models made the same power in reality, fitting a different exhaust system could also be used by the marketing folks to make the D3 seems just a bit more tempting by derating the lower cost S2 model. Anyone who buys the S2 isn't going to complain about a bit of extra power.
'78 Z1-R in blue , '78 Z1-R in black, '78 Z1-R in pieces
My dad's '74 Z1
'00 ZRX1100
Last edit: 18 Apr 2022 19:27 by DOHC.
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20 Apr 2022 16:42 #865853
by Nebr_Rex
2002 ZRX1200R
81 GPz1100
79 KZ1000st daily ride
79 KZ1000mk2 prodject
78 KZ650sr
78 KZ650b
81 KZ750e
80 KZ750ltd
77 KZ400/440 cafe project
76 KZ400/440 Fuel Injected
www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=39120.0
.
Replied by Nebr_Rex on topic Technical question - KZ400 S2 - How was horsepower lowered?
The factory 2 into 1exhaust is restrictive.
.
.
2002 ZRX1200R
81 GPz1100
79 KZ1000st daily ride
79 KZ1000mk2 prodject
78 KZ650sr
78 KZ650b
81 KZ750e
80 KZ750ltd
77 KZ400/440 cafe project
76 KZ400/440 Fuel Injected
www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=39120.0
.
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20 Apr 2022 18:46 #865860
by elfolan
1976 KZ400 S2
Replied by elfolan on topic Technical question - KZ400 S2 - How was horsepower lowered?
Thank you, this seems to be the consensus. I didn't realize the exhausts were different but I doubt I'd have considered it as the cause even if I'd known. It does make sense though.
Appreciate the information!
Appreciate the information!
1976 KZ400 S2
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22 Apr 2022 05:19 #865930
by Wookie58
Replied by Wookie58 on topic Technical question - KZ400 S2 - How was horsepower lowered?
You may find there are also subtle differences to carburation and ignition curves. I suspect if the power decreased on the later model it is likely to be emission related (IMHO)
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- TexasKZ
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22 Apr 2022 05:59 #865933
by TexasKZ
1982 KZ1000 LTD parts donor
1981 KZ1000 LTD awaiting resurrection
2000 ZRX1100 not ridden enough
Replied by TexasKZ on topic Technical question - KZ400 S2 - How was horsepower lowered?
As mentioned, it could be just marketing and have no relation to reality.
Also, I bet if we had 50 brand new KZ400S2s, and put their engines on a dynamometer, we would see a two horsepower variation from highest to lowest. Maybe more.
Also, I bet if we had 50 brand new KZ400S2s, and put their engines on a dynamometer, we would see a two horsepower variation from highest to lowest. Maybe more.
1982 KZ1000 LTD parts donor
1981 KZ1000 LTD awaiting resurrection
2000 ZRX1100 not ridden enough
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22 Apr 2022 12:08 - 22 Apr 2022 12:11 #865950
by Scirocco
My 1975 Z 1 B 900 Project
www.kzrider.com/forum/11-projects/605133...ears-deep-sleep-mode
Replied by Scirocco on topic Technical question - KZ400 S2 - How was horsepower lowered?
Power lowering on motorcycles can be done many ways like, jetting and intake air reduction, reducing the intake rubber boot and/or head to header diameter (welded washer), carb slider or throttle cable limiter, cams with less lift and duration, less compression and de-advancing ignition timing or with rev limiter.
My 1975 Z 1 B 900 Project
www.kzrider.com/forum/11-projects/605133...ears-deep-sleep-mode
Last edit: 22 Apr 2022 12:11 by Scirocco.
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