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TOPIC: 1979 KZ200A - Will not start (need a guru)

1979 KZ200A - Will not start (need a guru) 12 Aug 2019 16:14 #809082

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Hi all,

I am having (some) alot of trouble starting my 1979 KZ200A, refresh yourself with my tale of woe below.

First of all, this bike was running, I was riding hot laps around the block and it was purring like a kitten. started pretty easily too.

I did have one issue (which was the last issue I was trying to resolve) a random increase in engine speed from idle to almost flat out revs without any intervention. Would be sitting on the center stand idling away and begin to increase in revs like the bike was possessed by some speedway demon. I could pull on the choke lever partially to control the revs, I also noticed that when I blipped the throttle it would also sometimes encourage this high revving to happen, and also to go away, but not all the time.

Anyways.

The last time my bike randomly revved high, it failed to start again. The list of things I have checked, checked and rechecked are as follows:

1. Mechanical advancer removed, checked, regreased, reinstalled (was lacking grease, a bit gummed up, thinking this was cause of random revving), bike was also previously checked (when running) for air leaks and none found.
2. Cam timing checked and its pretty damn close, less than half a tooth off the alignment mark in the head.
3. Static timing checked, (FAP) mark aligned on pointer to when points begin to open
4. Dynamic timing checked (at cranking speed only as it wont run), (FAP mark aligned to pointer)
5. Points GAP (dwell) checked and rechecked
5. Points plate checked and rechecked
6. Compression test 115Psi cold crank, 155Psi with a teaspoon of oil added, some piston ring wear im guessing
7. Spark plug & lead in good condition (NGK B8ES multiple plugs used)
8. Valve clearance (exhaust 0.4mm (limit 0.17-0.22) / intake 0.2mm (limit 0.08-0.13mm) - I will be resetting the clearance today.
9. I have even set the timing way out whilst using aerostart/ether to try and get it to kick (verifying is spark is occuring inside the head) have successfully got backfires out carby & large flames out exhaust.
10. Condensor resistance @ 17.5 Million Ohms

To check:
1. Coil
2. Reset valve clearance
3. Flux capacitor

Any other ideas? Please recall that bike was running, was revving high, and now it wont fire, not even with aerostart/ether. It definitely feels like a timing issue but timing is checking out perfectly. also recall I have checked all this multiple times, timing is spot on.

P.S. carb has been pulled of, pulled down, cleaned everything, reassembled and re-installed. Before fingers are pointed at a carb problem, even with a non functioning carby the bike should still at least kick with Ether/Aerostart.

Thanks guys!

Bloggs
1979 KZ200A - cafe racer
1980 KZ250 - brat style

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Last edit: by Bloggs.

1979 KZ200A - Will not start (need a guru) 12 Aug 2019 16:50 #809084

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A hanging/high idle usually means a lean condition, often a result of a vacuum leak.

Did you install pods and if so did you rejet?

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1979 KZ200A - Will not start (need a guru) 12 Aug 2019 16:51 #809085

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Battery?
'82 KZ750 (E3) - working on aesthetics
www.kzrider.com/forum/11-projects/609763...ing-a-rusty-82-kz750
'80 KZ440D - (needs carbs)

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1979 KZ200A - Will not start (need a guru) 13 Aug 2019 02:39 #809091

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Tvag06 wrote: Battery?


The bike runs an Antigravity 12V 4 cell lithium ion battery. Battery is great, was running previously with this battery.
1979 KZ200A - cafe racer
1980 KZ250 - brat style

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1979 KZ200A - Will not start (need a guru) 13 Aug 2019 02:47 #809092

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Nessism wrote: A hanging/high idle usually means a lean condition, often a result of a vacuum leak.

Did you install pods and if so did you rejet?


Correct high idle usually lean and points towards vacuum leak, tested for vacuum leak when running and could not find one.

I did however find a sticky mechanical advancing mechanism which i have regreased, but unfortunately i have not been able to start the bike to tell if that was the problem.

Yes bike runs a pod filter, no it has not been rejetted to accomodate, was running with the current pod filter installed.

When i am cranking this bike over including using ether/starting fluid/aerostart i dont even get small fire/ignition from the bike, i get nothing.

If i spray aerostart into carb and open it wide open it will back fire through carb with flames.

Carb is a Mikuni VM31 i believe, measured @ 31mm dia.
1979 KZ200A - cafe racer
1980 KZ250 - brat style

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Last edit: by Bloggs.

1979 KZ200A - Will not start (need a guru) 13 Aug 2019 06:12 #809100

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are you sure that your idle screw is set right?
78 KZ1000 A2A

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1979 KZ200A - Will not start (need a guru) 13 Aug 2019 06:42 #809103

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As everyone else said, hanging/surging idle state is from leaning condition from an air leak more likely than not. Often times, if the air leak is small, it can go undetected by the "spray and listen" test. Have the intake and airbox connector rubbers been replaced? Intake O-ring replaced?

When the bike was running, and then isn't running after I mess with stuff, the first thing I would do is check and double check everything that I messed with. Are you 100% positive you reinstalled the mechanical advancer correctly? Isnt assembling the mechanical advancer 180* backwards a common no-start problem when you've messed with the mechanical advance?

EDIT: Correction for clarity underlined

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Last edit: by RustToRedemption.

1979 KZ200A - Will not start (need a guru) 13 Aug 2019 07:23 #809107

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" installing the mechanical advancer 180* backwards" would definitely make it back fire if you used a starter fluid.

I know this from experience
78 KZ1000 A2A

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Last edit: by bluej58.

1979 KZ200A - Will not start (need a guru) 13 Aug 2019 16:51 #809145

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bluej58 wrote: are you sure that your idle screw is set right?


Hi bluej58,

Yes, I have not altered its position from when it ran last, even with an idle screw out of whack I would think I could still get the motor to kick with some aerostart/ether?
1979 KZ200A - cafe racer
1980 KZ250 - brat style

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1979 KZ200A - Will not start (need a guru) 13 Aug 2019 17:31 #809146

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RustToRedemption wrote: As everyone else said, hanging/surging idle state is from leaning condition from an air leak more likely than not. Often times, if the air leak is small, it can go undetected by the "spray and listen" test. Have the intake and airbox connector rubbers been replaced? Intake O-ring replaced?

When the bike was running, and then isn't running after I mess with stuff, the first thing I would do is check and double check everything that I messed with. Are you 100% positive you reinstalled the mechanical advancer correctly? Isnt assembling the mechanical advancer 180* backwards a common no-start problem when you've messed with the mechanical advance?

EDIT: Correction for clarity underlined

bluej58 wrote: " installing the mechanical advancer 180* backwards" would definitely make it back fire if you used a starter fluid.

I know this from experience


I've used liquid gasket against the head rubber as a check, new hose clamps, new rubber on pod filter, still wont fire (not even once) with starting fluid added either, only backfires out carb if throttle is held open.

Oh snap, i just realised replaying the pull down/re-build of the advancer in my head that the actual mechanical advancer lobe which controls the points and spark timing can be installed exactly 180 deg out on the advancer base plate, which could, when timed dynamically, show as being timed correctly but is actually firing on the wrong stroke, and timed statically show as being timed correctly but on the stroke.

I have the valve covers off at the moment so Ill check TDC and check what the points are doing.

@bluej58 @RustToRedemption I think you guys might be on the money!

P.S. thats not a cracked arm below, just some moly grease.

https://imgur.com/a/ennnZ1z

https://imgur.com/a/9jbLKV9
1979 KZ200A - cafe racer
1980 KZ250 - brat style

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Last edit: by Bloggs. Reason: pictures

1979 KZ200A - Will not start (need a guru) 15 Aug 2019 07:26 #809200

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Bloggs did properly installing the mechanical advancer solve your problem?

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1979 KZ200A - Will not start (need a guru) 15 Aug 2019 09:25 #809201

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On a Kz with points and one coil, I think you would notice if the points cam were installed backward. When trying to time the points, the timing marks would be too far off (180 degrees off) to time the points correctly. That would have raised questions before trying to start it.

Whereas, on the bikes with two coils, there are two sets of timing marks so it would be easy to confuse one set with the other.

Or, on bikes with electronic ignition, it's easy to flip the rotor since you are not checking the rotor with anything.

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Last edit: by loudhvx.

1979 KZ200A - Will not start (need a guru) 15 Aug 2019 12:14 #809208

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It´s possible to turn the pointer plate 180 degrees of.



Attachments:

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1979 KZ200A - Will not start (need a guru) 15 Aug 2019 14:28 #809215

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I had a similar situation with a Yamaha XS400. Turned out that part of the problem was the butterfly seals on the carb shafts. Once the bike warmed a bit it would create a vacuum leak around the seals. They had small cracks in them.

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1979 KZ200A - Will not start (need a guru) 16 Aug 2019 06:32 #809254

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A little motor like this is just about as complicated as my lawnmower. LOL With that little bit of sarcasm out of the way,.. ether + spark= KaBOOM. I do this quite often to seat the bead on a tire, if I can't get it to seal by pulling it up on the bead. Be sure to have your fingers out of the way or they will get smashed in the explosion.

ANY motor with 110 PSI compression and spark will fire on either. No spark = no kaboom. Easy peasy.
1981 Kawasaki Kz1000K1
Located in the Saint Louis, Missouri Area.

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1979 KZ200A - Will not start (need a guru) 17 Aug 2019 23:29 #809376

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RustToRedemption wrote: Bloggs did properly installing the mechanical advancer solve your problem?


Indeed it did, kudos for the help bro. Mech advancer re-installed correctly, had it timed perfectly 180 out haha. Fired up easy as on both electric and kick start!

Now to chase the hanging idle. It is only a hanging idle now, the hunting idle which was constant is gone.

Bike when warmed up and with no choke idles fantastically, has the hanging idle which comes down slowly after the motor is revved.

I'm guessing it's probably good etiquette to close off this thread and move over to the carby section to keep the threads clean and to the point, assuming the hanging idle is a lean condition that is.

No doubt they will say turf the old mikuni VM33 lol

Thanks again @rusttoredemption
1979 KZ200A - cafe racer
1980 KZ250 - brat style

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1979 KZ200A - Will not start (need a guru) 17 Aug 2019 23:35 #809377

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Scirocco wrote: It´s possible to turn the pointer plate 180 degrees of.


100%

When you realise your on TDC comp stroke, watching the valves and realising the points are out 180deg it's a face palm moment.

Bonus to this is I learnt a hell of a lot along the way I didn't know before.
1979 KZ200A - cafe racer
1980 KZ250 - brat style

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1979 KZ200A - Will not start (need a guru) 17 Aug 2019 23:54 #809378

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loudhvx wrote: On a Kz with points and one coil, I think you would notice if the points cam were installed backward. When trying to time the points, the timing marks would be too far off (180 degrees off) to time the points correctly. That would have raised questions before trying to start it.

Whereas, on the bikes with two coils, there are two sets of timing marks so it would be easy to confuse one set with the other.

Or, on bikes with electronic ignition, it's easy to flip the rotor since you are not checking the rotor with anything.


You wouldn't believe it, but, I did eventually notice lol

And it taught me to look at the system as a whole, not just when the timing marks roll on past.

The mech advancer lobe was 180 out, points cam rolls around once and the same timing marks go past twice on the crank, Statically timed on wrong stroke with cam lobe 180 out it was never going to fire.

When I popped the valve covers and watched valves in motion in relation to spark timing I said a few choice words, undid 4 screws, fixed the problem and reassembled.

Props to RustToRedemption.
1979 KZ200A - cafe racer
1980 KZ250 - brat style

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Last edit: by Bloggs.
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