adjusting timing on transistor ignition kz400?

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29 Mar 2019 16:55 - 29 Mar 2019 17:19 #801260 by OldguyJoe
Hi guys.
Rebuild is complete on the 1977 kz400. It looks great but runs poorly. All the usual checks are complete (compression by the numbers, great spark, plenty of fuel), but it's still running rough and won't get above 1500 rpm. My old Miata did the same thing when timing was retarded, and a simple advance fixed it.
Problem is, I can't figure out how to advance the timing on this machine (electronic ignition). The pickup coil has no adjustment options. The service manual shows how to adjust timing on the old points ignition, but didn't anticipate introduction of transistor ignitions. Adjustment of the timing chain wouldn"t help, as all it does is change when the valves open. Spark timing doesn't change.
What am I missing?

1977 weird Canadian version of KZ400-s3
Had a 1973 Kawi 175 F3 trail bike in the 80s.
Last edit: 29 Mar 2019 17:19 by OldguyJoe.

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29 Mar 2019 17:38 #801262 by Nessism
Unless you heavily modded the bike there is no need to adjust the timing. Just leave it be and focus your attention on other things.

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29 Mar 2019 18:52 #801264 by 650ed
I suggest you check the carbs out to make sure they are squeaky clean inside. Years ago I had a problem with my KZ650; the engine would not run above about 1500 rpm. The bike had been sitting for a fairly long time without running and with fuel in the carbs. I removed and carefully cleaned the carbs and the problem disappeared and has never happened again. Ed

1977 KZ650-C1 Original Owner - Stock (with additional invisible FIAMM horn)

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29 Mar 2019 19:13 #801265 by OldguyJoe
Replied by OldguyJoe on topic adjusting timing on transistor ignition kz400?
Alright, thanks guys. I'll do that.

1977 weird Canadian version of KZ400-s3
Had a 1973 Kawi 175 F3 trail bike in the 80s.

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03 Apr 2019 17:44 #801468 by OldguyJoe
Replied by OldguyJoe on topic adjusting timing on transistor ignition kz400?
Ok, carbs are completely scrubbed and rebuilt with new gaskets. It still ran at low rpms and roughly with lots out smoke out both tailpipes. I figured out a way to advance timing and sure enough it didn't help either (thanks Nessism).
What other things should I be looking at? The thing ran great before rebuild (except for the overheat situation).
Ideas?

1977 weird Canadian version of KZ400-s3
Had a 1973 Kawi 175 F3 trail bike in the 80s.

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03 Apr 2019 17:49 - 03 Apr 2019 17:56 #801470 by OldguyJoe
Replied by OldguyJoe on topic adjusting timing on transistor ignition kz400?
Also, valve lash and timing is perfect, and spark is great.
At the end of my rope here. It's behaving as though the mixture is too rich at all throttle settings.

1977 weird Canadian version of KZ400-s3
Had a 1973 Kawi 175 F3 trail bike in the 80s.
Last edit: 03 Apr 2019 17:56 by OldguyJoe.

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03 Apr 2019 18:09 - 03 Apr 2019 18:15 #801472 by loudhvx
Most 1977 Kz400's have rubber diaphragm carbs. But a few models, or at least one still had the piston CV carbs. Is that what you have?

EDIT: Nevermind. Ignore the below info. It looks like you have the rubber diaphragm type carbs. Just make sure the diaphragms are not punctured.

If so, the carbs are very sensitive to having the piston covers installed absolutely correctly. Just slapping them on will usually cause one or both to hang up.
The proper way to install the piston cover is to reach into the carb with a finger and lift and drop the piston repeatedly while gently snugging up the two screws on the piston cover. You'll notice as you snug up the screws, the piston will fall slightly slower. That's normal, but it should still drop freely. When both sides are done, when you tilt the carbs upside down, then right side up, both pistons should fall so that you only hear one "clunk". If you hear two distinct clunks, then one piston is falling slower than the other.

If the slides don't move properly, the engine will not rev up.

Also, the outer edge of the piston should get one drop of very light motor oil. The central tube of the piston slide should get about one drop of oil as well.
This is after everything is known to be perfectly clean, of course.

Also, make sure you don't have the air jets (under the piston covers) in the wrong positions. They can easily be swapped and it's not obvious which one goes where.
Last edit: 03 Apr 2019 18:15 by loudhvx.
The following user(s) said Thank You: OldguyJoe

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04 Apr 2019 16:29 #801532 by OldguyJoe
Replied by OldguyJoe on topic adjusting timing on transistor ignition kz400?
I shall closely inspect the diaphragms. Thanks a bunch.

1977 weird Canadian version of KZ400-s3
Had a 1973 Kawi 175 F3 trail bike in the 80s.

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04 Apr 2019 17:30 #801538 by OldguyJoe
Replied by OldguyJoe on topic adjusting timing on transistor ignition kz400?
Close inspection of all needles reveals that I may have re-installed floats upside-down.
I'm a dope. Thanks for the encouragement to focus on carbs.
Will report back.

1977 weird Canadian version of KZ400-s3
Had a 1973 Kawi 175 F3 trail bike in the 80s.

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05 Apr 2019 18:26 #801614 by OldguyJoe
Replied by OldguyJoe on topic adjusting timing on transistor ignition kz400?
Ok, floats were not upside down. Now I have to flip them back over.
Should have looked more closely at the manual pics before going through all the trouble.

1977 weird Canadian version of KZ400-s3
Had a 1973 Kawi 175 F3 trail bike in the 80s.

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