Ignition Timing

I just wanted to discuss the effects of ignition timing that is out by a couple of degrees.

By about 1 - 3 ATDC at idle and what effect it would have.

I ask this because my Z500 B3 timing is out by about this much.

I cannot fix it because their is no more movement in the timing plate.

So before I take a dremel to it to to expand the grooves thought I would ask around to see if it matters of if their is another way of doing it.

razmo99 wrote: I just wanted to discuss the effects of ignition timing that is out by a couple of degrees.

By about 1 - 3 ATDC at idle and what effect it would have.

I ask this because my Z500 B3 timing is out by about this much.

I cannot fix it because their is no more movement in the timing plate.

So before I take a dremel to it to to expand the grooves thought I would ask around to see if it matters of if their is another way of doing it.

Are you sure it's the ignition timing that's off? And not e.g. a worn out cam chain?

I didn't know that the cam chain would have an impact on this.
It only rattles a little bit at idle and only sometimes. when riding I cannot hear it at all.

Just so their is no confusion I am talking about 1 to 3 degrees out from the marking on the case(to the right) when the bike is idling.

Worn timing advancer is usually the culprit. It let's the timing move at idle. Been there, seen that.

I don't use a mechanical advance any more. I have one I would give you but I don't think my 77 kz1000 is the same advancer.

if I took the advancer off are their tell tale signs of wear?

Check the felt pads make sure they are free od debris and oiled. Springs should be in good shape. Careful not to loose or damage them, as you can not buy replacements. I have heard you can use Chevy 350 mechanical advance springs. That was on a 1000. Keep in mind spring stiffness alters timing advance. Weak springs bring advance on sooner. Tight springs, later.

razmo99 wrote: if I took the advancer off are their tell tale signs of wear?

If the little "wings" are loose and not held under spring tension that means at idle the weights throw out before they should advancing the spark. That screws up in two ways:

1) It forces you to compensate by turning the plate for the error, eventually to the point you run out of slot.

2) It eats up some of the total advance which means it screws up the advance curve and reduces the total amount it will advance.

A couple degrees off at idle is meaningless. Check the timing at full advance using a timing light and the engine reved up. The F mark should align. If that is off by 3 degrees then I'd get the dremel out, although I doubt you will notice a difference with the bike on the road unless it's knocking.

Edit: need clarification whether the timing is 1-3 degrees off from the marks on the advance unit, vs. 1-3 degrees after TDC.

Are you sure it's 1 to 3 degrees ATDC? That is pretty far off. It should be 10 deg BTDC.

Is this a points ignition system? When I bought my KZ650B1 the PO assured me he'd had it running, but then it wouldn't start again. When I got it home and checked the points and timing, which obviously had not been apart for a while, there was no way it could ever have run, with the position of the points and the timing. I forget exactly what the problem was and the layout in the points cover, but one of the issues I had, was not being able to rotate the timing plate to the correct position. There was however adjustment on the individual points too, and by moving them I was able to get satisfactory set up where the backing plate had ample adjustment to set the timing. In my case someone had obviously loused this up years ago and that's why the bike had been sitting for years with only 12,000 miles on it, it just needed someone of the "points generation" to spend 15 minutes on it so it would fire up first touch of the starter, even with dirty carbs I felt it was the best $325 I'd ever spent, when I heard that motor fire up and run.

It seems to me taking the Dremel out would be a bad idea, because there has to be another explanation for your problem and you might be masking something, by doing that, that you will regret later when possibly some engine damage occurs if the timing is doing something funny while running. Are you doing static timing or with a strobe light? I would attempt setting it statically using a bulb across the points to see if you can achieve that setting, moving the points or pickups on the backing plate if necessary. Then if it all goes pear shaped when the motors running and you use a strobe, then you know something is going awry when operating dynamically like the advance unit.

On most Kawasaki fours, the "F" timing mark is where you time it at idle. The full advance mark is usually one or two lines that are on the advancer unit. As you rev the motor to say like 3,000 RPM or so, the line or lines will show up with the timing light. I always time the motor at the full advance marks, screw the timing at idle n my book.