KZ1000K2 - cam chain and engine/valve noise
- The_Raven
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01 Jul 2013 21:25 #594637
by The_Raven
-Mark P.
Salem, MA
Widowmaker, 1982 KZ1000J2 @1100cc
Red Scare, 1994 Honda VF750C Magna
I intend to die from living.
KZ1000K2 - cam chain and engine/valve noise was created by The_Raven
Howyadoin,
I've put a bunch of money and time into this bike, and I'm almost at the point where I can just ride the sucker. A couple of things stand in my way.
First, there's an oil leak on the front half-moon on the #1 cylinder. Seeing how this is always bathed in oil whenever the bike is on the side stand, I can see how this could happen. So I bought a new cylinder head cover/valve cover (whichever you prefer) gasket and new half-moons. I went to pull the cover and found most of the bolts were loose as hell, some of them almost finger-tight. I almost said to heck with it and just torqued everything down to see what I'd end up with on the leak, but there is a valve noise issue that I couldn't ignore.
So anyway, everything looks in pretty good shape to my inexperienced eye, there is no scoring on any of the cam surfaces, the chain guide on the underside of the cover had very minimal wear. I'm not sure if the chain deflection is within spec. I've uploaded a video of my inspection and would appreciate if one of you guru types would have a quick look and let me know if it's OK.
Please pardon the nausea-cam!
I still need to check valve clearance, I'm doing that on the 4th when I have time off. I'm concerned about the chain tensioner and the other chain guides, they look like a real pain to check, am I (hopefully) wrong?
I've put a bunch of money and time into this bike, and I'm almost at the point where I can just ride the sucker. A couple of things stand in my way.
First, there's an oil leak on the front half-moon on the #1 cylinder. Seeing how this is always bathed in oil whenever the bike is on the side stand, I can see how this could happen. So I bought a new cylinder head cover/valve cover (whichever you prefer) gasket and new half-moons. I went to pull the cover and found most of the bolts were loose as hell, some of them almost finger-tight. I almost said to heck with it and just torqued everything down to see what I'd end up with on the leak, but there is a valve noise issue that I couldn't ignore.
So anyway, everything looks in pretty good shape to my inexperienced eye, there is no scoring on any of the cam surfaces, the chain guide on the underside of the cover had very minimal wear. I'm not sure if the chain deflection is within spec. I've uploaded a video of my inspection and would appreciate if one of you guru types would have a quick look and let me know if it's OK.
Please pardon the nausea-cam!
I still need to check valve clearance, I'm doing that on the 4th when I have time off. I'm concerned about the chain tensioner and the other chain guides, they look like a real pain to check, am I (hopefully) wrong?
-Mark P.
Salem, MA
Widowmaker, 1982 KZ1000J2 @1100cc
Red Scare, 1994 Honda VF750C Magna
I intend to die from living.
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- Motor Head
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01 Jul 2013 21:46 #594640
by Motor Head
1982 KZ1000LTD K2 Vance & Hines 4-1 ACCEL COILS Added Vetter fairing & Bags. FOX Racing rear Shocks, Braced Swing-arm, Fork Brace, Progressive Fork Springs RT Gold Emulators, APE Valve Springs, 1166 Big Bore kit, RS34's, GPZ cams.
1980 KZ550LTD C1 Stock SOLD Miss it
1979 MAZDA RX7 in the works, 13B...
Replied by Motor Head on topic KZ1000K2 - cam chain and engine/valve noise
That slack in the cam chain is normal with the cover off. The cover has a chain guide in the underside which pushes the chain down. That said, the actual cam chain tensioner, which is down under the carbs, needs to have the wedge removed before putting the cover back on. The wedge is under the 17mm Nut on the tensioner. There is a wedge and a spring. With it removed the main part of the tensioner will be able to retract when you go to torque down the cover.
There is a Manual Cam Chain Tensioner available. This is to ensure the tension does not back off when running. APE makes quite a nice one, about $60. Well worth it. Other noises may be loose valve clearance, or even a bit of piston to cylinder wall clearance. This usually makes more noise on a cold start, deeper sound, a knock, gone on warmer engine.
There is a Manual Cam Chain Tensioner available. This is to ensure the tension does not back off when running. APE makes quite a nice one, about $60. Well worth it. Other noises may be loose valve clearance, or even a bit of piston to cylinder wall clearance. This usually makes more noise on a cold start, deeper sound, a knock, gone on warmer engine.
1982 KZ1000LTD K2 Vance & Hines 4-1 ACCEL COILS Added Vetter fairing & Bags. FOX Racing rear Shocks, Braced Swing-arm, Fork Brace, Progressive Fork Springs RT Gold Emulators, APE Valve Springs, 1166 Big Bore kit, RS34's, GPZ cams.
1980 KZ550LTD C1 Stock SOLD Miss it
1979 MAZDA RX7 in the works, 13B...
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- The_Raven
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01 Jul 2013 23:08 #594661
by The_Raven
-Mark P.
Salem, MA
Widowmaker, 1982 KZ1000J2 @1100cc
Red Scare, 1994 Honda VF750C Magna
I intend to die from living.
Replied by The_Raven on topic KZ1000K2 - cam chain and engine/valve noise
So I have to pull the carbs and reset the tensioner before I can reinstall the cover? Then reinstall the carbs? Yikes. I hate, hate, hate messing with working carbs. Oh well, such is life.
-Mark P.
Salem, MA
Widowmaker, 1982 KZ1000J2 @1100cc
Red Scare, 1994 Honda VF750C Magna
I intend to die from living.
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01 Jul 2013 23:14 #594664
by Motor Head
1982 KZ1000LTD K2 Vance & Hines 4-1 ACCEL COILS Added Vetter fairing & Bags. FOX Racing rear Shocks, Braced Swing-arm, Fork Brace, Progressive Fork Springs RT Gold Emulators, APE Valve Springs, 1166 Big Bore kit, RS34's, GPZ cams.
1980 KZ550LTD C1 Stock SOLD Miss it
1979 MAZDA RX7 in the works, 13B...
Replied by Motor Head on topic KZ1000K2 - cam chain and engine/valve noise
No, the carbs stay in place. Just look from the left side of the bike, under the carbs. You will see the tensioner. Take the 17mm size nut/ cap off. Then you will see the spring, and the wedge will have a small round end you can grab with a pair of needle nose.
1982 KZ1000LTD K2 Vance & Hines 4-1 ACCEL COILS Added Vetter fairing & Bags. FOX Racing rear Shocks, Braced Swing-arm, Fork Brace, Progressive Fork Springs RT Gold Emulators, APE Valve Springs, 1166 Big Bore kit, RS34's, GPZ cams.
1980 KZ550LTD C1 Stock SOLD Miss it
1979 MAZDA RX7 in the works, 13B...
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- Patton
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01 Jul 2013 23:14 #594665
by Patton
1973 Z1
KZ900 LTD
Replied by Patton on topic KZ1000K2 - cam chain and engine/valve noise
The tensioner is accessible without removing carbs.
Good Fortune!
Good Fortune!
1973 Z1
KZ900 LTD
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- The_Raven
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01 Jul 2013 23:54 #594670
by The_Raven
-Mark P.
Salem, MA
Widowmaker, 1982 KZ1000J2 @1100cc
Red Scare, 1994 Honda VF750C Magna
I intend to die from living.
Replied by The_Raven on topic KZ1000K2 - cam chain and engine/valve noise
That's a huge relief... This bike has fresh boots and holders, so it may not have been a complete PITA to R&R the carbs, but I have recurring nightmares about my J2 with its ancient rubber (that I'll be replacing once I'm done with the K2, as part of trying to get the J2 bike back to life).
So if I understand correctly, I'll leave the tensioner intact while I do the valve clearance check (and shim mods if necessary), then remove the tensioner spring and wedge before I install and torque down the cover, then put the tensioner spring and wedge back in and torque the 17mm cover nut/cap down, right? Should I use a dot of Loctite Blue on the nut to keep it from walking out?
While I've got the fuel tank off... Any chance the noise I'm hearing could be from un-synced carbs? Yeah, I'm a glutton for punishment!
Many thanks!
So if I understand correctly, I'll leave the tensioner intact while I do the valve clearance check (and shim mods if necessary), then remove the tensioner spring and wedge before I install and torque down the cover, then put the tensioner spring and wedge back in and torque the 17mm cover nut/cap down, right? Should I use a dot of Loctite Blue on the nut to keep it from walking out?
While I've got the fuel tank off... Any chance the noise I'm hearing could be from un-synced carbs? Yeah, I'm a glutton for punishment!
Many thanks!
-Mark P.
Salem, MA
Widowmaker, 1982 KZ1000J2 @1100cc
Red Scare, 1994 Honda VF750C Magna
I intend to die from living.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
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01 Jul 2013 23:57 - 01 Jul 2013 23:58 #594671
by Motor Head
1982 KZ1000LTD K2 Vance & Hines 4-1 ACCEL COILS Added Vetter fairing & Bags. FOX Racing rear Shocks, Braced Swing-arm, Fork Brace, Progressive Fork Springs RT Gold Emulators, APE Valve Springs, 1166 Big Bore kit, RS34's, GPZ cams.
1980 KZ550LTD C1 Stock SOLD Miss it
1979 MAZDA RX7 in the works, 13B...
Replied by Motor Head on topic KZ1000K2 - cam chain and engine/valve noise
Sounds like you got it. Loc-tite isn't necessary, but don't over tighten it, or anything else for that matter, it will break off.
The APE Tensioner will eliminate the possibility of a tensioner failure.
Carb sync should be done during regular maintenance.
www.kawiworld.com/index.php?option=com_c...icle&id=77&Itemid=99
The APE Tensioner will eliminate the possibility of a tensioner failure.
Carb sync should be done during regular maintenance.
www.kawiworld.com/index.php?option=com_c...icle&id=77&Itemid=99
1982 KZ1000LTD K2 Vance & Hines 4-1 ACCEL COILS Added Vetter fairing & Bags. FOX Racing rear Shocks, Braced Swing-arm, Fork Brace, Progressive Fork Springs RT Gold Emulators, APE Valve Springs, 1166 Big Bore kit, RS34's, GPZ cams.
1980 KZ550LTD C1 Stock SOLD Miss it
1979 MAZDA RX7 in the works, 13B...
Last edit: 01 Jul 2013 23:58 by Motor Head.
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- The_Raven
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01 Sep 2013 20:36 #604351
by The_Raven
-Mark P.
Salem, MA
Widowmaker, 1982 KZ1000J2 @1100cc
Red Scare, 1994 Honda VF750C Magna
I intend to die from living.
Replied by The_Raven on topic KZ1000K2 - cam chain and engine/valve noise
Howyadoin,
So I finally had some time to myself yesterday and got around to attempting to replace the shims. I have 5 valves out-of-spec, as follows:
I was hoping for a hookup for the shims from a buddy at a dealership, but he couldn't locate what I needed, so I ordered from Z1, they're lightning fast to me here in Boston anyway. I ordered up replacements for the shims where I know what I need, ordered a couple of 2.30s and a 2.40 for the ones that were too tight to read. I'm opting for the high end of the tolerance as you can see, I figure it will help keep the valves cooler, at the cost of a couple of degrees of duration maybe?
A question: I found that after the valve lifter tool was in place, the shim removed, read, and reinserted in the lifter, the only way to put the cam lobe back on the lifter to remove the tool was to rotate the crankshaft BACKWARDS?!? I hope I didn't screw up anything!
So I finally had some time to myself yesterday and got around to attempting to replace the shims. I have 5 valves out-of-spec, as follows:
Code:
exhaust
cyl clearance old shim new shim new clearance
1 .006 2.60 2.50 .016
2 n/a 2.70 ???? ????
3 .004 2.55 2.45 .014
4 n/a 2.60 ????? ????
intake
cyl clearance old shim new shim new clearance
4 .004 2.60 2.50 .014
I was hoping for a hookup for the shims from a buddy at a dealership, but he couldn't locate what I needed, so I ordered from Z1, they're lightning fast to me here in Boston anyway. I ordered up replacements for the shims where I know what I need, ordered a couple of 2.30s and a 2.40 for the ones that were too tight to read. I'm opting for the high end of the tolerance as you can see, I figure it will help keep the valves cooler, at the cost of a couple of degrees of duration maybe?
A question: I found that after the valve lifter tool was in place, the shim removed, read, and reinserted in the lifter, the only way to put the cam lobe back on the lifter to remove the tool was to rotate the crankshaft BACKWARDS?!? I hope I didn't screw up anything!
-Mark P.
Salem, MA
Widowmaker, 1982 KZ1000J2 @1100cc
Red Scare, 1994 Honda VF750C Magna
I intend to die from living.
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- The_Raven
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02 Sep 2013 20:13 #604531
by The_Raven
-Mark P.
Salem, MA
Widowmaker, 1982 KZ1000J2 @1100cc
Red Scare, 1994 Honda VF750C Magna
I intend to die from living.
Replied by The_Raven on topic KZ1000K2 - cam chain and engine/valve noise
My buddy came through on the shims, so I was able to do the shim swap finally... Here's how it looks now - note that I left the intake valves on 1, 2 & 3 alone, they were between .008 and .010.
All I need to do now is Timesert the valve cover bolt hole. I'm going to have to be super-careful not to let any metal shavings into the engine, the hole is right where the half-moon sits at the #1 exhaust valve. But that's another day...
Code:
exhaust
cyl clearance old shim new shim new clearance
1 .006 2.60 2.55 .014
2 n/a 2.70 2.55 .015
3 .004 2.55 2.45 .011
4 n/a 2.60 2.45 .015
intake
cyl clearance old shim new shim new clearance
4 .004 2.60 2.50 .014
All I need to do now is Timesert the valve cover bolt hole. I'm going to have to be super-careful not to let any metal shavings into the engine, the hole is right where the half-moon sits at the #1 exhaust valve. But that's another day...
-Mark P.
Salem, MA
Widowmaker, 1982 KZ1000J2 @1100cc
Red Scare, 1994 Honda VF750C Magna
I intend to die from living.
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- The_Raven
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08 Sep 2013 22:30 #605612
by The_Raven
-Mark P.
Salem, MA
Widowmaker, 1982 KZ1000J2 @1100cc
Red Scare, 1994 Honda VF750C Magna
I intend to die from living.
Replied by The_Raven on topic KZ1000K2 - cam chain and engine/valve noise
A machinist friend of mine came by and installed the Timesert, it was a perfect fit and worked awesome! So I buttoned everything back up and she fired up like new, the top end is dry as a bone too. There's still a little racket at idle, but running strong. I did find another oil leak down at the starter cover area that the other leak was masking, but it's nothing major. Had a quick test ride that afternoon, and an awesome 150 mile shakedown cruise out past Worcester and back the next day. Thanks to Motor Head et al for the assistance!
-Mark P.
Salem, MA
Widowmaker, 1982 KZ1000J2 @1100cc
Red Scare, 1994 Honda VF750C Magna
I intend to die from living.
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- 650ed
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08 Sep 2013 22:37 #605614
by 650ed
1977 KZ650-C1 Original Owner - Stock (with additional invisible FIAMM horn)
Replied by 650ed on topic KZ1000K2 - cam chain and engine/valve noise
The noise at idle may be the result of the carbs not being sync'ed. You might want to sync them and see if it gets a bit quieter. Ed
1977 KZ650-C1 Original Owner - Stock (with additional invisible FIAMM horn)
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