I'm escared....really escared

Back story:

KZ650C-1 basketcase that I pretty much was getting there for the last year however a bitch to start. Took starting fluid if the engine was cold and sometimes when hot. Sat a couple weeks while I was gone and it wouldnt start. I finally got a backfiring beast running with copious amounts of spray and it runs like crap for about three miles then kinda smoothes out (mostly). I was leaving again so I take it to a trustworthy shop for a look see on its bad manners. Timing set perfectly, valve clearances checked, carbs synched but it wont start for him either. He does some research and finds that the PO installed the crank 180 out.

My first question...How the hell did it EVER run like this?

So he installs the crank properly and it still wont run. Compression is found to suck (errr...not suck?) at numbers like 40, 60, 95 and 70. Damn
"Rings!" I say....then I re-think before spending the fist-full of dollars that OEM rings run for this (HOLY SHEEP). I agree to a head peek to see if all the valves are bent before I spend.

Question 2- 180 out crank=guaranteed bent valves?

He can't get back to it for a few days so now the fear has set in. I'm like 500 in the hole on labor here already and at what point do I say enough. Its not a pretty KZ but I dont want to quit yet. At some point common sense will have to take over before my wife cut my nards off over this. Its a 77 with 27K on it and I originally paid 500.00. I was at about 1500 in with tires and odds and ends until today and now I rolled over 2k.
Its not my first bike by any means but I've never-ever had trashed engine...even on my Z-1 so the fear begins to creep in. When is when enough?

Thoughts? Therapy? Kind words? Mockings?
I'll be in the head puking.

Find a different machanic, the crank cannot be set in 180 off, the cams can but not the crank. I would start with a tune up, check and adjust valve clearances, new spark plugs, if the carbs were atored with gas in them for a length of time then they will need cleaning, ect. I have had rings stick on a bike that had sat for a long time and the compression numbers were very low. I added small amounts of oil in each cylinder and got it to start and run. Once running the rings freed up and it ran great.

Cam..CAM yeah I meant CAM! Duh... yeah 180 crank would not work. ooops Im tired. Thanks for catching that!
All that was done and it wasn't stored a long time at all..in fact it was running pretty good (ok, fair) til I split for about ten days (not enough to varnish).

Get your bike back home and get yourself a shop manual.
Check the timing marks under the points cover,bring motor up to tdc by turning motor over by hand with the plugs out.
Then pull the valve cover off and check the timing marks on your cam sprockets compared to the picture in your manual,its very unlikely your cams are far out of wack on a reasonably decent running motor unless your cam chain somehow commited suicide by jumping several teeth finishing itself off .

If the cams were 180 off the engine could not run. Perhaps he meant that the PO installed the cams wrong, bent the valves, then corrected it and dumped the bike on the next unsuspecting owner.

Those compression readings definitely mean bad valves of some form or fashion.

gsnfl wrote: Back story:

KZ650C-1 basketcase that I pretty much was getting there for the last year however a bitch to start. Took starting fluid if the engine was cold and sometimes when hot. Sat a couple weeks while I was gone and it wouldnt start. I finally got a backfiring beast running with copious amounts of spray and it runs like crap for about three miles then kinda smoothes out (mostly).

original coils?

I think what he meant was that the Crank and cams were not timed correctly, causing the two coils to be firing off of the wrong points/ pick-up coils. As this is about the same as replacing the advancer 180 out, and then moving the wires to compensate.
You didn't do a compression test yourself sometime recently before taking to a Shop did you? The symptoms of being extremely hard to start, and running poorly could very well be low compression. Why hasn't he Shop done a Leak Down Test to tell you that you have Bad/ Bent valves? This would be the Next step after such a low compression test. Find out where its leaking, and decide if you want to put more $ into it at that Shop. $500 already and no Joy, Ouch!

bountyhunter wrote: If the cams were 180 off the engine could not run. Perhaps he meant that the PO installed the cams wrong, bent the valves, then corrected it and dumped the bike on the next unsuspecting owner.

Those compression readings definitely mean bad valves of some form or fashion.

If the cams are 180 out and you rotate the crank one more time they will be in time again.

Remember, cams turn at 1/2 speed of crank.

Ignition timing could be 180 out though, since it runs off crank.

Fresh (ish) coils...Timing is dead on 100% verified several ways and times. As far as why I have it there, I've been travelling for work too much to deal with it so I trusted a pro. The only trusted pro in town. The other "pro" is the effin PO!
Leak down test is tomorrow or maybe the day after. I'm hoping for the best but expecting the worst.

Ahhhh. the half turn makes sense!

steell wrote:

bountyhunter wrote: If the cams were 180 off the engine could not run. Perhaps he meant that the PO installed the cams wrong, bent the valves, then corrected it and dumped the bike on the next unsuspecting owner.

Those compression readings definitely mean bad valves of some form or fashion.

If the cams are 180 out and you rotate the crank one more time they will be in time again.

Remember, cams turn at 1/2 speed of crank.

Ignition timing could be 180 out though, since it runs off crank.

But that can't be the problem according to the OP: he said it ran but crappy. If the timing advancer was 180 off, it could not run at all.

My point was that maybe he installed the cams wrong (off some amount) and bent the valves then set the cams on right. That would result in bent valves, poor compression, and running like crap.... which sounds like what he has.


If these numbers are accurate:

Compression is found to suck (errr...not suck?) at numbers like 40, 60, 95 and 70. Damn

I guarantee it's not an ignition timing problem. Either the cam timing is way off or the valves are bent. Bad rings? I had 75000 on my engine at the rebuild and the rings were still holding about 125 PSI cold/dry. Rings are not all going to break in unison and give you 40 - 70 PSI readings. Has to be a problem with the valves.

First thing I would have done is to take the head off, flip it upside down and fill the combustion chambers with light oil and watch to see if it drains out past the valve seats. If it does, the valves are hosed and the head needs to be rebuilt.

500.00 bikes cost 3000.00 to ride
it is an age old formula and these numbers move around some but not much

if the bikes psi is down with the cams on the right teeth and ignition timing right...then you need head work...get an ltd-kz-sr-csr 650-750 motor for 200 and be free of this one ,fix it later