To hone or not to hone

Sooo as you may have read in my "bad day" thread i have a new to me set of Jugs on the way. Now i have NO intention of changing the Rings; $200 for rings would CRUSH my timeline for this project; probably i would lose motivation and it would sit for another year.

Soooo with the same old Rings on her and a new to me cylinder block in the mail should i have the block honed?

It seems that getting it done would only make things worse to me (but i know little about this stuff)

So what do you all think?

another quick question with 35,000 miles on it should i change the cam chain while i have it this far appart. I would use the breaking and reriviting method not splitting the block. So is it something i should do now? Or should i wait untill im ready to split the cases and change it then?

hardr0ck68 wrote:

Soooo with the same old Rings on her and a new to me cylinder block in the mail should i have the block honed?

Indeed, in any case YES.

It seems that getting it done would only make things worse to me (but i know little about this stuff)


So what do you all think?

another quick question with 35,000 miles on it should i change the cam chain while i have it this far appart. I would use the breaking and reriviting method not splitting the block. So is it something i should do now? Or should i wait untill im ready to split the cases and change it then?

I think you'd be better off to put the money you intend to spend otherwise on the cam chain into that set of rings you want to skip. Unless the cam chain is shot, and at 35,000 on the clock, it should have some life left.

The can chain can be replaced without pulling the jugs - you can do that at a later date and get better results in the short term.

Dropping a fresh jug on old rings is pretty much setting yourself up to be asked about a zillion times whether you're riding a two-stroke, because it's likely to smoke like a chimney, and the compression will outright suck.

The motor will run like that, but not well. And you'd still be faced with doing both rings and cam chain at the later date, so you'd be in essense doubling your effort for less than half the results.

Rings now, chain later.

i agree, throw some rings in er'

You said "new to me" jugs, so is it safe to assume they are used and have not been honed?

Assuming this is the case, then I'll go against conventional wisdom and say don't hone unless you are installing new rings.

My reasoning is if you hone and use your old rings the wearing in of the cylinder walls is going to eat the rings and they will not seal. If the cylinder walls are in good shape (no taper/scratches/etc), and the walls have already worn smooth, and your piston rings are in good shape (the ring gap is within specs on the new cylinder), then install it and see if it works. If it don't work a top end gasket set is not real expensive.

I have not personally seen this done on a motorcyle motor, but I have seen it done on automotive engines and it worked.

On a side note, are rings for the 650 even available anymore? I seem to recall Jeff saying he was having a difficult time finding them (but I could be wrong).

Post edited by: steell, at: 2006/06/16 01:19

I see what you're getting at Steell, but I'm not so sure it translates all that well from a massive, water cooled automotive block to an air cooled, lightweight motorcycle block.

Typically, higher-revving, hotter running bike ring/cylinder sets "wear in" to a slightly odd, out-of round-shape, at least to evidence I've seen.

I'd think that the slight roughing of the cylinder wall by a cross-hatched hone would allow for more of a "boundry layer" to build up at the ring gap and perhaps block a bit of blow-by.

But in either case, it's not the best solution.

Even same/same ring-block re-installs can be expected to let a fair amount of smoke. It might diminish after a while, but it's never right...

Ultimately, I suppose it can be done either way - hone/no hone, but I wouldn't want to admit to having done it - either way.

If it's at all feasible, go for the new rings - you'll have reason to be happy you did in the long run.

Post edited by: Pterosaur, at: 2006/06/16 01:39

if i blow $200 on a new rings there is NO WAY i will get this bike on the road this year; and you have to understand how much of a letdown that will be to me. $200 alone is not so much but i still need to:

put shoes on her 120ish
redo both masters and all 3 calipers 150ish
have all 3 rotors cleaned up 75ish
rebuild front forks 30ish
front sprocket and chain 50ish

Now im looking at my bank accound and thinking i might be able to swing all that and with Jeff living just 2 blocks away from me i wont have to wait long on shipping ....soo i COULD get this thing togeather and ride some before winter (this is my first bike).

Add 200 for some rings to that and yeah....theres just no way im gonna swing that. Besides Z1 anyone know where to buy rings?

hardr0ck68 wrote:

if i blow $200 on a new rings there is NO WAY i will get this bike on the road this year; and you have to understand how much of a letdown that will be to me....

Of course we understand. Most or all of us have been in that position at one time or another...

And given your list, it's difficult to give advice about where you could rob Peter to pay Paul without knowing the condition of the other parts - each has concerns directly connected to your safety.

And that's where things get tough; it's much easier to give advice on how to do a job right - it gets a bit dicey when trying to advise someone on how to do it intentionally screwed up.

That's nobody's fault, but for example, say you put the motor together the way you suggested, those rings are *way* out of round, even one of them breaks and tears up a cylinder wall...

Then you're not only into rings, you're looking at rings, pistons and a bore job - at best.

So while we understand your problem, you have to understand ours; we're running a pretty fine line here between what's bordeline advice, and what's just plain *bad* advice under any circumstances...

Notice I specified "If the cylinders are in good shape" AKA "In spec"

I just had a 750 twin and 750 four cylinder blocks bored recently, both were in spec as far as out of round, but the taper exceeded specs on both, and both had less than 30k miles on them.

I'm not saying that using the old rings is a good idea, I'm just saying that considering the stated financial situation, "I" would go ahead and use the current rings and new jugs (as long as everything is within spec), while saving money to purchase a 750 jug and a Wiseco 810 kit.

My position is, do what you gotta do in order to ride.

And watch eBay for rings, they do sometimes show up.

And remember Rule #7 (in the Rules thread at the top of the forum)

(7) Information provided in the Tech Forums is provided at no cost and
no guarantee that it is correct, so evaluate it and make your own
decision, you are responsible for anything that you screw up, no one
else. The Moderators are here to enforce civil behavior, "NOT" to ensure technical correctness of every post. It's your rearend on that bike, so evaluate information and don't take for granted that it is correct.

I just read your "Bad day" thread again and am going to modify my advice a little.
I suggest using the original cylinder block with the two broken fins, and watching for new pistons and rings on eBay. Get the new block measured to see if a hone will leave it in spec or if it will have to be bored.
Two broken fins are not going to affect things enough to matter, and people looking at it probably won't notice anyway.
Meanwhile save your money to buy the 810 kit and get a 750 block on eBay for a winter project

That's my suggestion anyway.

Post edited by: steell, at: 2006/06/16 10:34

steell wrote:

...I just read your "Bad day" thread again and am going to modify my advice a little.
I suggest using the original cylinder block with the two broken fins, and watching for new pistons and rings on eBay. Get the new block measured to see if a hone will leave it in spec or if it will have to be bored.
Two broken fins are not going to affect things enough to matter, and prople looking at it probably won't notice anyway.
Meanwhile save your money to buy the 810 kit and get a 750 block on eBay for a winter project

That's my suggestion anyway.

Seconded.

ball hone it and slap it together!! working on kawasakis is FUN!! I'd do it 3 times just for the serenity!!

I sent a message to the seller about the condition of the jugs, didnt get a response, glad to see someone here got them, I was concerned about the wear and it also stated that it had stuck rings.
I have a set of jugs at a shop to see if they can be bored, if so I am going to sink the bucks in on the new oversize set

Im not much for using old rings, but they will seal. All i ever do is use 220 sandpaper and my hand to cross hatch cylinders. This may sound funny but ive never had a set of rings not seal. I just fold a sheet in half, put it in my hand, insert it into the jug, rotate it back and forth and in and out. It takes no time at all, and when ur done, do the other end of the jug the same way. It leaves a nice cross hatch, and the rings will seal. Every motor i've worked on and done this with never had a problem.

Post edited by: nads.com, at: 2006/06/17 19:18