Frustrated.. Cam chain, valve shims, low compression

Well, maybe I'll try smacking it harder w/my rubber hammer. I was just tapping it so maybe a bit more force is needed to set the point to get good leverage. I'm also wondering if maybe there is more room in the 4 cylinder head, than the twin. In the meantime I'm reading the chapters on removing the cams. I can get it so the 7mm side of the spacer is on a bit of an angle. There's enough room to get one side of the shim up but not enough clearance to fully remove the shim.

Hmm, I wouldnt try and force the bucket down if it won't go though. Probably be bad if it's already bottomed out. I'm sure with a little wiggling you will be able to tell if it has any spring left to go though. Maybe someone more familiar with your bike can tell you, I'm sure there's someone on here who has been there before.

Ron

AR15Ron wrote:

Hmm, I wouldnt try and force the bucket down if it won't go though. Probably be bad if it's already bottomed out. I'm sure with a little wiggling you will be able to tell if it has any spring left to go though. Maybe someone more familiar with your bike can tell you, I'm sure there's someone on here who has been there before.

Ron

Well, Ron, I'm absolutely positive I have a lot more room to depress the valve. When I rotate the cam and let it depress the valve, I can see it depress quite a bit more than I can get the lever to depress it. I'm sure that if I had the Kawi tool, to hold the valve down at it's lowest point I'd have plenty of room to remove the shim.
Ron

C'mon guys. Forget using Harley tool #1 (hammer) and forget using the dumb lever tool.

Only the "bat" is needed. Don't fool with the lever tool at all.

Transmission should be in neutral.

First measure all clearances with feeler gauges and write down the numbers.

RULE #1 NEVER ALLOW BOTH VALVES TO BE OPENING AT THE SAME TIME -- Because they will hit each other inside the combustion chamber and bend. So if you're working with the exhaust valve, be certain the intake cam lobe is NOT opening the intake valve while the tool is holding the exhaust valve open. And vice-versa -- when working on the intake valve, be certain the exhaust cam lobe is NOT opening the exhaust valve while the tool is holding the intake valve open.

While valve is open (meaning pushed down by the cam lobe and not the dumb lever tool) careful placement of the "bat" onto the edge of the bucket will hold the valve open while the cam is turned away (use a wrench on the largest bolt -17mm- under the ignition cover to hand turn the crankshaft) just enough whereby some space is created between the lobe and shim. Go slowly and carefully as the "bat" must be placed precisely into position and held until it catches onto the edge of the bucket. Use a pencil magnet or tweezers to remove the shim. The size stamp on the shim should hopefully be visible on the underside. Replace shim with proper size (usually thinner). Turn cam lobe back to hold valve open while removing the "bat".

The "bent rod lever tool" is designed to fit between the lobe and shim and pry the valve open while the bat is inserted (without using the cam lobe to open the valve). It is far easier to use the cam lobe.

I'm sure your method works but I'm not too keen on deviating from the directions
I'd say go ahead and tap that thing in, it'll lock in place and you'll be all set. I found it's pretty easy once you get the hang of it, especially if you have good lighting (unlike me). I didnt have any trouble getting the shims out, although I did find that the one that had a 270 shim would only fit out one side, it got stuck the other way. A magnetic pickup tool is handy. I'm sure you'll be fine. I can't wait to get this thing back together, I have so much more work to do but I try to start too many things at once!

Ron

Well, nurse, the operation was a success...but the patient died:(. I AM F'ed!!!!!!!
I tried the harley tool first but I just couldn't get a good angle to get a whak hard enough to get the lever tool in so I switched to Patton's suggestion. After trying a couple of times, to get the "bat" tool on the edge of the bucket, I couldn't get enough clearance to get the shim out w/the 7mm end of the tool, so I tried the 10mm side. Success:), had enough clearance for it to come out very easily. I then started to rotate the cams to get to the next valve. As I rotated it a little I felt an obstruction and couldn't rotate it anymore. I didn't use a lot of force but it was deffinately stopped. I then did a no-no and backed it up and then came to another obstruction, and was stopped again. After looking the situation over a bit I realized that the cam lobe is stuck in the shim bucket and is being caught on the lip. There is no way to rotate the cam more than the arc of the lob w/in the bucket. I can't even get the shim back in because the lobe can't get out. I guess this makes the decision simple...I have to remove the cams:( Merde!!!

ronjones wrote:

...cam lobe is stuck in the shim bucket...guess...I have to remove the cams:( Merde!!!

:ohmy: :pinch: Boo on turning cam lobe toward bucket before inserting new shim. Merde happens, sad to say.

Unsure whether the Kawasaki tool may have somehow avoided this scenario.

Wondering if lever tool or other wedge could pry between lobe and recess, pushing bucket down enough to turn lobe free from recess and allow replacing bat to insert shim. But if not, removing the cam does seem the next option.

When replacing cam, careful not to strip any threads inside the head by over-tightening the bolts.

Yeah, it sux!! What I don't understand is that I've read quite a few posts about changing shims and no one ever mentioned this happening. From reading some of the posts, it sounded like you could take them all out at the same time and shuffle them around so you don't need to buy replacements for all of them. I don't know if the Kawisaki tool would have done any better.
Wish me luck on cam removal/install.
Thanks for the tip about over tightening but I'll defenately be using a torque wrench.
Sorry I kinda hijacked the thread.
Ron

Mmm, prolly should have mentioned that. When I said I shuffled them I meant that I removed one, saw what size it was, put the spare one in it's place and went to the next one I had bought one spare from Z-1 so I had an extra to move around.

C'est la vie

Ron

AR15Ron wrote:

I'm sure your method works but I'm not too keen on deviating from the directions....

Hmmm, although

I did have the pry piece shoot out and hit me in the face but that was my fault. Luckily I wear glasses. And, The lever thing is kind of a pain.

Common lament, as ronjones wrote:

having a terrible time with the lever tool.

As to directions, the KHI KZ1000 Service Manual says:

Turn the crankshaft so that the cam is pushing the lifter down and fit the tool in place....Turn the crankshaft in the proper direction so that the cam points away from the lifter, and remove the shim....Insert the new shim on the valve lifter with the numbered side facing so the number won't be polished off by the action of the cam....Turn the crankshaft so that the cam is again pushing down the lifter, and remove the special tool.

As to other posts -- ronjones

read quite a few posts about changing shims and no one ever mentioned this happening. From reading some of the posts, it sounded like you could take them all out at the same time and shuffle them around so you don't need to buy replacements for all of them.

The goodposts say

...remove the shim. The size stamp on the shim should hopefully be visible on the underside. Replace shim with proper size (usually thinner). Turn cam lobe back to hold valve open while removing the "bat".

And more about the method from wiredgeorge:

Re:'82 1000 Valve Adjustment Problems - 2006/08/27 21:40
The shims on your J motor change out just the same as they do on the earlier engine. The Motion Pro tool requires a deft touch to get it right on the edge of a bucket. I never use the pry gizmo. It truly doesn't provide much leverage. Roll the lobe ONTO the bucket to depress it as far as possible and then put the butterfly deal in place and then roll the cam the opposite way to allow the bucket to come up a tad and the butterfly thing will catch the edge (in theory bwhahaha). Once it does, you can roll the lobe away from the bucket and slip the shim back in. You just need to be patient as the butterfly thing will want to get just hung out over the bucket a tad and make sticking the shim in place a chore.

I never use that Motion Pro stuff much. The genuine Kaw valve shim tool I have works pretty much every time as it slides OVER the flat spot in front of the valve on the cylinder head. Once in place, it has an arm that catches the front of the bucket pretty much without a fuss and makes changing shims much easier."

Another nice aspect of using the cam lobe instead of the lever tool is that allowing the cam to hold the bucket down allows use of both hands to position the bat into place without having to devote one hand to the prying operation while inserting the bat.

As to using torque wrench when replacing the cam bolts and not stripping any threads, try insofar as possible to have cam lobes turned away from shims while tightening bolts. As this avoids extra stress on the threads otherwise caused by having to compress the valve springs while bolts are being tightened.

Wishing "Good Luck" to you, ronjones. And take some comfort in knowing others will learn and benefit from your experience.

Ron, To use the batwing thing from Motion Pro, first step is to put the pry tool in the bottom of your toolbox and leave it stay there. Let's do one valve at a time with the batwing.

Roll cam lobe so that it is AWAY from bucket. Rotate bucket till the bucket notch is pointed to front for exhaust and rear for intake valves. If the valve has no clearance, you can tap it on its edge using a screwdriver and small hammer. Don't gouge up the bucket or worse, the cylinder head... There isn't much finger room for prying the notch in these cases and you need to be patient.

Roll cam lobe with 17mm socket (NOT A WRENCH) on the 17mm nut on end of crank so that the lobe depresses the bucket.

Put batwing in place next to bucket where it sits on the edge of the bucket but not the shim (THIS IS THE HARDEST PART!)

Use the 17mm socket wrench to roll the cam AWAY from the batwing so that the batwing holds the bucket down.

Use a dental pick or small screwdriver in the bucket notch to pop the shim up and grab it with a screwdriver.

To install new shim, pop it into the bucket recess and make sure it is seated and roll the cam in the opposite direction with your socket wrench... the point is to NOT roll the cam lobe onto the batwing.

---

The Motion Pro instructions tell you not to do this as it can damage the engine. It CAN if you roll the cam onto the batwing so just pay attention. This is EXACTLY how you roll the cam to depress the cam lobe using the Kaw Factory tool where you run the same risk of damage if you go the wrong way. I find it pretty hard to believe you can't use the engine itself (rather than the pry tool) as it is much easier than the pry tool method as the tool has poor leverage... If it had a better handle and were longer, perhaps it wouldn't be so difficult to compress the valve springs with it. Patton has given you the best advice and I know that you want to follow directions but sometimes experience works. I carefully read directions and then do what I think best. I works out sometimes hehe

Hey, Ron...don't feel bad, as I said I've read quite a few posts on valve adjustment and this issue has never come to my attention. Heck my FSM doesn't even mention it. But trying to make lemonade out of lemons, I just figure I was ment to remove the cams.
Thanks for the information, all.
RonJ