Getting started - cafe or bob?

Meant to type to, not tk... stuck on crappy tablet right now

If you put struts on make sure you can replace your shocks after ya find it too uncomfordable!

SteppnRzr wrote:

guitargeek wrote: Choppers are stupid. Rigid/hardtail frames are stupid. Don't be a fashion victim.

Don't get me wrong guy... I'm not a fashion/fad follower, I'm a little too short to feel comfortable on the bike. Not being a smartass, but why do you say rigid frames are stupid?

Alot of people who prefer rigid frames claim they look better than a suspended rear. A big point of contention is the "comfort" issue. Some people say it isnt that bad, for me and many others find it uncomfortable to feel every bump in the road on your ass. I guess you will have to form your own opinion on that.

However one thing that IS NOT opinion, is that your bikes handling and cornering performance will suffer drastically. Eg, you hit a bump mid-corner, instead of the shocks absorbing the bump and keeping the tire in contact with the road through the turn, the tire bounces the frame off the bump and you loose rear contact, pitching the rear outward. At this point one of three things will happen depending on your angle of lean , speed, and traction conditions. 1) you do not regain traction and lowside. 2)you regain traction and are able to regain control 3) you regain traction and the bike violently rights itself resulting in a highside. This is why people who ride rigids corner very cautiously.

the conclusion i have come to is that people who prefer rigid frames do not like to corner. thats fine. thats their preference. Many people associate this behavior with people using a motorcycle as a fashion accessory thats where the "fashion victim" comes into play

Cornering hard is the ultimate rush on a bike in my opinion. I would follow Boots advice and not make your change to struts permanent.

Bingo, it's the ruin of handling. Remove the rear suspension and you hobble the bike.

SteppnRzr wrote: ........ Not being a smartass, but why do you say rigid frames are stupid?

In addition to lack of comfort bikes with hardtail frames handle very poorly compared to bikes with rear suspension systems. Consider the following:
Bike A has rear shocks (or a single shock). Good shocks help keep the tire in contact with the road. Bike A rides over a speed bump. As the rear tire/wheel lifts over the bump the axle is pushed upwards; this compresses the shock absorbers. The rear of the bike is lifted, but not the full height of the speed bump. The distance it is lifted is approximately the height of the speed bump minus the amount the shocks were compressed. The mass of the rear of the bike moving upwards and the velocity of that movement will tend to lighten the rear at that moment, and if the bump is tall enough or the bike’s speed great enough the rear of the bike may become airborne. This lightening is proportional to the mass and upward velocity of the bike. This movement and associated lightening (and resulting vertical momentum) of the rear is reduced on a bike with shocks because some of the energy is absorbed in compressing the shocks. Less vertical momentum is good. As the rear lightens, the compressed shocks rebound (lengthen) to help push the rear axle down to maintain contact between the tire and pavement. As the rear returns to its normal weight the shocks compress to their normal length softening the movement. With proper shocks there should be no bouncing after passing the speed bump.

Bike B has a rigid rear frame. Hardtail frames do nothing whatsoever to keep the tire in contact with the road. Bike B rides over the same speed bump at the same speed. As the rear tire/wheel lifts over the bump the axle is pushed upwards. Because of the rigid frame the rear of the bike is lifted the full height of the speed bump. With no shock absorbers all the energy is transferred from the axle to the frame of the bike, and since there are no shock absorbers the velocity of the upward movement and resulting vertical momentum is greater than that of Bike A. More vertical momentum is bad. The mass of the rear of the bike moving upwards and the velocity of that movement will tend to lighten the rear at that moment, and if the bump is tall enough or the bike’s speed great enough the rear of the bike may become airborne. Again, this lightening is proportional to the mass and upward velocity of the bike, so because the upward velocity of Bike B is greater than that of Bike A the lightening and potential loss of contact with the pavement is also greater than that of Bike A. As the rear returns to its normal weight and drops back down, with no shocks, the rear of the bike makes a harder landing and may even bounce up again.

Now consider that both bikes may be going at speed through a turn when they hit a bump or pothole. The rider on Bike A may come through it fine while the rider on Bike B must change his shorts and repaint his bike.

In other words, hardtail bikes handle like crap; that's why really good handling bikes and bikes that race on anything other than a straight track have big investments in very high quality shocks. Ed

DoctoRot wrote:

SteppnRzr wrote:

guitargeek wrote: Choppers are stupid. Rigid/hardtail frames are stupid. Don't be a fashion victim.

Don't get me wrong guy... I'm not a fashion/fad follower, I'm a little too short to feel comfortable on the bike. Not being a smartass, but why do you say rigid frames are stupid?

Alot of people who prefer rigid frames claim they look better than a suspended rear. A big point of contention is the "comfort" issue. Some people say it isnt that bad, for me and many others find it uncomfortable to feel every bump in the road on your ass. I guess you will have to form your own opinion on that.

However one thing that IS NOT opinion, is that your bikes handling and cornering performance will suffer drastically. Eg, you hit a bump mid-corner, instead of the shocks absorbing the bump and keeping the tire in contact with the road through the turn, the tire bounces the frame off the bump and you loose rear contact, pitching the rear outward. At this point one of three things will happen depending on your angle of lean , speed, and traction conditions. 1) you do not regain traction and lowside. 2)you regain traction and are able to regain control 3) you regain traction and the bike violently rights itself resulting in a highside. This is why people who ride rigids corner very cautiously.

the conclusion i have come to is that people who prefer rigid frames do not like to corner. thats fine. thats their preference. Many people associate this behavior with people using a motorcycle as a fashion accessory thats where the "fashion victim" comes into play

Cornering hard is the ultimate rush on a bike in my opinion. I would follow Boots advice and not make your change to struts permanent.

Well said. I appreciate that. Makes sense and I never thought about how struts would affect the ride in cornering.

Buy a Harley and step away from the KZ.

Forget the harley and stick with what you have Step.....you can lower the suspension for a start, really work on the seat thickness, there are some pretty high tech foams out there to help keep the seat top surface lower to the ground.... learn to ride better so as not to rely on your feet on the ground too much......if that is still not enough then there are frame mods to look at, like lowering the seat rails. I would get rid of the clubman bars and put on a set of superbike bars, this will get you to sit more upright which will make controlling your bike a little easier IMO.....good luck

Another option --



Meanwhile, wearing tall-heel cowboy boots may help with reaching the ground while stopped.

Good Fortune!

Something not mentioned here ? If your back isnt in bad shape before you ride a hardtail, it definitely will be afterwards and if you have a bad one to start with you probably wont be able to walk after.
I rode a 1970's 1000 cc Hardtail Harley years ago and it was the most uncomfortable , unforgiving, foul handling bike i have ever ridden. Only did about 20 miles but that was more than enough and as guitargeek said whats the point in a bike that doesnt corner.
One more thing is that i have seen a few people cut the crap out their frames to make choppers/bobbers - impossible for the average owner to reverse unless you know a good welder i guess.