Darn aligator skin

Hi all
I just painted my motorcycle green using Matrix Systems complete paint kit. I sanded down to the metal in most cases and then used the bare metal treatment step of their kit. I used a Craftsman HVLP bottom feed gun for the whole process.

Long story short, the paint doesn't look that awesome, if you look closely you can see very slight "orange peel" looking substance (its not actually as bad as an orange peel).

I'm not sure what step (the first primer for bare metal, the second regular primer, the base coat, or the clear) this orange peel set in, but I'd like to know what to do in the future to avoid it. FYI, I noticed this was happening and tried to spray lighter and more even on one piece of the body work. That piece got the orange peel the worst!


Another question - may I use clear coat on any paint? Do I have to abide by using clear coat within 24 hours of the base coat? I would normally assume that some clear coat doesn't play well with certain paints, but the bottle of clear I bought says "universal clear coat" right on it. JW
Peter

if its only orange peel you should be able to wetsand it then buf and polish to bring a smooth finish.

Post edited by: mykznme, at: 2006/05/26 08:06

if your going to wait more than 24hrs you need an adhesion promotor before you spray clear . a thicker wet coat should help the orange peel but might cause runs. you can alway wet sand the clear with 2000 grit and lots of water then polish the peel out.

I have been painting for 30 years, I have painted with every type of paint, universal clearcoat sounds like a cheaper clear, I use it, it comes in different brands and I expect to have to sand and buff it most of the time, so I usually do an extra coat just for that purpose,always comes out good, I also use the premium clears and don't have to polish it out, but still do. You have to understand paint,you use a metal primer then a primer sufacer then a base and top it with a clear thats 4 different types of paint, and the base coat is completely different from the clear. Base/clear was developed for the new car showroom, so when the customer came in he saw the shinyest car ever and the manufacturer doesn't care what it looks like after its sold, think about all the vehicles you see with the clear peeling off, they're just a couple of years old, I always recommend a single stage paint, my not shine like base/clear but way more durable,with a good buff and wax looks just about as good

Post edited by: agawam, at: 2006/05/26 23:29

newbikekiller wrote:

Hi all
I just painted my motorcycle green using Matrix Systems complete paint kit. I sanded down to the metal in most cases and then used the bare metal treatment step of their kit. I used a Craftsman HVLP bottom feed gun for the whole process.

The steps to achieving a decent paint job are really pretty basic - conceptually - it's taking those concepts and transforming them into a finished project that draws *ooohs and ahhhhs* from the crowd that gets a little difficult.

The Matrix kit is a pretty good "one stop shop" idea, no problem there.

Where I start to smell trouble is with the "I sanded down to the metal in most cases and then used the bare metal treatment step of their kit."

There's several potential problems in that one sentence.

First, "breaking" layers of paint then trying to feather them to an acceptable contour is problematic at best and takes a keen eye to even have a snowball's chance in hell of working out. Because of the relatively small surface area of a set of bike parts, they're usually stripped to bare metal/plastic pro forma as a starting point. It's just easier.

Second, I've never used the Matrix setup, but it's a fairly safe bet that their "bare metal treatment" was intended to be used on a complete item - say a gas tank that had been bead blasted or lye soaked rather than as a spot treatment on a partially sanded tank. Wherever paint was broken to reach metal, the cross section of paint exposed will tend to soak up and interact with the foreign chemistry, and that can lead to adhesion problems.

At that stage, the only real option is to load the piece with primer and attempt to even out the surface by liberal interpretation of the *filler* part of "primer-filler".

...I'm not sure what step (the first primer for bare metal, the second regular primer, the base coat, or the clear) this orange peel set in, but I'd like to know what to do in the future to avoid it. FYI, I noticed this was happening and tried to spray lighter and more even on one piece of the body work. That piece got the orange peel the worst!

Since the primer coats are intended to be sanded smooth in the first place, orange peel at those layers is irrelevant, or should be.

"Orange peel" forms as a result of a layer beginning to set - increasing viscosity creates surface tension - before gravity can "flow" the layer into a constant level.

What that means is to reduce peel, it's necessary to shoot as wet as possible short of developing runs in order to give the paint adequate time and material to "flow together" before starting to set or "tack".

So essentially, the very steps you took to reduce the peel in your job really accentuated it.

A good painter knows the paint, knows the reducer, knows the conditions - temperature/humidity, knows the gun and knows the goal - sometimes, he doesn't care about peel because a colorcoat will get sanded and cleared anyway - but if it's a high gloss finish coat, he's watching the point of contact between the fan from the gun and the piece and mentally calculating what he can get away with based on his experience.

So really, what you want to know is, "How do I play Carnegie Hall?"

The answer is: Practice, practice, practice.

...Another question - may I use clear coat on any paint? Do I have to abide by using clear coat within 24 hours of the base coat? I would normally assume that some clear coat doesn't play well with certain paints, but the bottle of clear I bought says "universal clear coat" right on it. JW
Peter

You can shoot clear over most anything, the issue is getting it to stick. While it's possible to shoot enmamel clears over set laquer colorcoats, that's at least a 102 level discussion. Best just to stick with matching basecoat/clears - enamels over enamels, etc.

No, there's no *Clearcoat Cops* that will bust you for shooting clear in 48, 72 or 172 hours after painting. Actually, it can work better to wait awhile, because an enamel paint job will shrink as it sets, bringing out flaws in the previous layer's prep. Waiting a bit allows for a chance to fudge a bit when sanding and make the color layer look better before clearing it.

Clear plays just fine with paints - they're *designed* to. If it was such a pain in the a$$, nobody'd be doing it, and coatings developers wouldn't be making it. It's more of a matter of doing a little homework and understanding the interaction of the various components.

Hope that helps...

Post edited by: Pterosaur, at: 2006/05/27 01:32

...double clutch...

Post edited by: Pterosaur, at: 2006/05/27 01:19

Very good stuff here guys!@

I'm glad I asked.

I took the top (the parts you can see) of the metal pieces down to metal and blasted the entire top side of the pieces with the metal sealer stuff.

One big problem was doing a poor job on bondo on the tank (it is a noticable repair, it was a big dent.) The other problem was the orange peel, I probably did enough "LIGHT" (like, 5?) coats to guareentee the peel. Not bad for my first job, and the bike is most definately green now .

Should I buy a top feed gun for my next painting project? If so, what should I get, reasonably priced, <200$?

newbikekiller wrote:

...I took the top (the parts you can see) of the metal pieces down to metal and blasted the entire top side of the pieces with the metal sealer stuff.

For metal parts, hunt around and find a radiator shop that does truck core boil-outs. For 5 or 10 bucks, they'll toss your stuff in with the next core, and it'll come out whistle clean bare metal in 30 minutes.

Partially stripping/blasting a part only adds to your headaches later.

...One big problem was doing a poor job on bondo on the tank (it is a noticable repair, it was a big dent.)

The best way to think of setting up a paint job is like putting up a multi-level house - and the bodywork as the foundation. If the foundation sucks, nothing above it will turn out - no matter what.

...The other problem was the orange peel, I probably did enough "LIGHT" (like, 5?) coats to guareentee the peel. Not bad for my first job....

There's the story in a nutshell. Your biggest single issue is a lack of experience in a number of skills from bodywork on up, and there's no way to improve short of getting in there and getting at it.

You might want to nose around a decent library - they're sure to have books on automotive bodywork and painting that will go into a lot more basic detail than we're really capable of here. Or if you know someone that's been down this road, offer 'em a case or three of their favorite suds to coach you through a job.

But beyond some basic skills, the trick with bodywork and painting is an aquired *feel* for the work, and you're back to Carnegie Hall.

...Should I buy a top feed gun for my next painting project? If so, what should I get, reasonably priced, <200$?

Truthfully, you're a ways from having to worry about that. Essentially, a 10 grand gun won't cover 2 buck bodywork any better than a rattlecan.

But to answer your question, there's $80 Chinese-made DeVilbis gravity-feed copies that shoot paint as pretty as you'll ever need a gun to - once you have a handle on it.

Keep with it - you'll improve.