TOPIC:

You are correct Bountyhunter.

bountyhunter wrote: From an aircraft mechanic:
The normal prescribed flight procedure after ring replacement is to keep ground running to a minimum, take off at full power and reduce to climb power at the first available safe altitude, all while keeping the climb angle flat and the climb airspeed higher to promote the best cooling possible. At cruise altitude we should use 65% to 75% power and run the engine richer then normal.

This sounds about right. Key thing: use the throttle liberally and load the rings, but nothing crazy. Keep load down below 3/4 power - no full throttle blasts up to red line right away.

just checked wiseco web site it says "Multiply your bore size in inches times the value on the table (to convert metric bore to inches, divide your metric bore x 25.4. For example, 77mm divided by 25.4 = 3.0314”, multiply this times the "value on the chart"so my 69 mm 810cc kit should run between .0135"-.0149 "ring end gap clearance.

kawi810 wrote: just checked wiseco web site it says "Multiply your bore size in inches times the value on the table (to convert metric bore to inches, divide your metric bore x 25.4. For example, 77mm divided by 25.4 = 3.0314”, multiply this times the "value on the chart"so my 69 mm 810cc kit should run between .0135"-.0149 "ring end gap clearance.

Bingo! ....it's always been that way... per inch of bore.

Found this artice about "cylinder deglazing" when I was looking around.

Sure to be very controversial, but very interesting. Other articles I read state that there are two types of "cylinder glaze":

1) When oil gets oxidized by hot gas blowby and cooks a lacquer like film onto the cylinder wall.

2) When the metal "peaks" don't wear down but rather get bent over into the valleys forming a smooth surface that does not hold oil well.



www.turbododge.com/forums/f11/f69/245224...nder-glaze-myth.html

Synopsis: There is NO such thing as "Glaze Breaking." That's because there's no such thing, in a cylinder, as "glaze" - the word implies a deposit of foreign materials of some sort on your cylinder's surface. Unless you've been running with Teflon in your oil or some such silly thing as that, from whence would the foreign materials have come? Cylinders don't "glaze." Brake drums glaze - brake shoe material can actually become deposited on the drum surface, but cylinders don't.

No, what you've got is a smooth, polished, machine surface - just the thing for your new rings to seal against, once their high spots have been rubbed off in a careful and responsible break-in process. One which does NOT need to be preceeded by using the crudest of all the machine tools to scratch, abrade, trash, dog, bullyrag, and otherwise screw up your lovely smooth cylinder.

You see, the point is that, providing you use cast-iron piston rings, the rings will bed in to the shiny cylinder surface with few problems, and in a short time, too! Turns out that running an abrasive hone unecessarily through your cylinder will only serve to:

prolong the break-in process - by having created "valleys" of hone scratches in your cylinder wall, the "mountains" of which must be worn down before you get a smooth, properly-sealing cylinder wall once again. (And a considerably larger one, at that!)

leave some of the hone's abrasive materials in the bottom of the scratches, to leach slowly into your oil and accelerate engine wear - of ALL the engine components - for a long time to come

establish a new "base line" cylinder diameter to wear down to, thus ensuring that you'll end up with larger ring gaps and greater piston clearance by the time your new rings are "worn in."

All in all, reducing the time you'll get from that engine before the next service is required, and hastening the arrival of a need for a rebore and oversize piston.

Very interesting article - thanks. So, are stock Kawasaki KZ rings cast iron or chrome? Ed

After doing the math, I decided to cheat. The manual says for 900cc 0.008-0.016 and 0.012-0.020 for 1000cc models..

bountyhunter wrote: Found this artice about "cylinder deglazing" when I was looking around.

Sure to be very controversial, but very interesting. Other articles I read state that there are two types of "cylinder glaze":

1) When oil gets oxidized by hot gas blowby and cooks a lacquer like film onto the cylinder wall.

2) When the metal "peaks" don't wear down but rather get bent over into the valleys forming a smooth surface that does not hold oil well.



www.turbododge.com/forums/f11/f69/245224...nder-glaze-myth.html

Synopsis: There is NO such thing as "Glaze Breaking." That's because there's no such thing, in a cylinder, as "glaze" - the word implies a deposit of foreign materials of some sort on your cylinder's surface. Unless you've been running with Teflon in your oil or some such silly thing as that, from whence would the foreign materials have come? Cylinders don't "glaze." Brake drums glaze - brake shoe material can actually become deposited on the drum surface, but cylinders don't.

No, what you've got is a smooth, polished, machine surface - just the thing for your new rings to seal against, once their high spots have been rubbed off in a careful and responsible break-in process. One which does NOT need to be preceeded by using the crudest of all the machine tools to scratch, abrade, trash, dog, bullyrag, and otherwise screw up your lovely smooth cylinder.

You see, the point is that, providing you use cast-iron piston rings, the rings will bed in to the shiny cylinder surface with few problems, and in a short time, too! Turns out that running an abrasive hone unecessarily through your cylinder will only serve to:

prolong the break-in process - by having created "valleys" of hone scratches in your cylinder wall, the "mountains" of which must be worn down before you get a smooth, properly-sealing cylinder wall once again. (And a considerably larger one, at that!)

leave some of the hone's abrasive materials in the bottom of the scratches, to leach slowly into your oil and accelerate engine wear - of ALL the engine components - for a long time to come

establish a new "base line" cylinder diameter to wear down to, thus ensuring that you'll end up with larger ring gaps and greater piston clearance by the time your new rings are "worn in."

All in all, reducing the time you'll get from that engine before the next service is required, and hastening the arrival of a need for a rebore and oversize piston.

That is fascinating. And has truthiness too. I would sure like to find the SAE study that is the basis for the claims.

I have my "glazed" block and a new ball hone in the basement. They have not mated yet; and wondering if they should..

Chris

650ed wrote: Very interesting article - thanks. So, are stock Kawasaki KZ rings cast iron or chrome? Ed

Say it ain't so.... you're not going to let that Internet Article sway you from your service manual are you

Most 4 strokes have chromed top ring with non coated ductile iron second ring. The Oil rails are steel....they can be bent during installation. I believe the wave ring is also steel.

If you look at Wiseco's ring piston and ring literature there are codes to decipher the ring types for their pistons. One of the issues with old MTC pistons was they used whatever rings they got the best deal on. You would find later on that if you needed rings, you had to send your pistons to the to have them recut for whatever rings they happened to have switched to since yours were made. That's not well known but it's true. Can't say what they're current practice is.

I have NEVER had an issue with Wiseco rings but 2 years back I got a new set of MTC pistons that the rings would not fully compress on. A couple of phone calls got the matter sorted out and they got the pistons sent back for correction. They stood behind their product..no issues there.

BTW...that article...should come on rolls of paper found in your bathroom because that's about all its good for. What a bunch of hog wash that is. For starters you clean the bores properly...you don't get crap in the cylinders.

But for the sake of reality vs all the gibberish that's found on the Internet...dwell on this tid bit. I know guys that just spray the cylinders out with brake cleaner before installing them. I"ve seen guys wash them out in the parts washer and blow them dry. I've seen things carefully prepped and basically slapped together at dealerships. I've seen J motors torn down for warranty cranks, the blocks slapped right back on with the old rings....nothing touched, honed...what have you.... AND I can tell you that when it came right down to it.... as long as the bore job was not worn out to begin with....the rings seated just fine... And that comes from decades of dealing with these engines.

I don't condone doing things like that. I don't practice it... But it's REAL WORLD and It happens every single day and not just with bikes either. Car dealerships and may repair shops practice procedures that had you been there to see it going on... well, you'd not be impressed...but the stuff goes out the door, runs, doesn't smoke.

Matter of fact we had a customer way back that his kid raced MX. Dad did all the work on the bike. He used to bring us his bore jobs. He washed them out with hot soapy water just like we told him to. Then he added his own touch. He'd install them with the rust on the cylinder wall surfaces. His clam... instant ring seating. Now they were 2 strokes so who knows...but his kid sure did well racing and his bikes always ran good TRUE STORY!

Everyone has a method, preferences etc. When it comes to everything from gasket installation to you name it. The bottom line is unless something is horribly wrong, completely overlooked and just clumsily put together... gaskets seal, rings break in and motors run.......

I can cruise a thread and tell in short order as to who has ACTUALLY worked on a lot of engines vs who's just a cut and paster from google searches.

I think the thing that would make the claim fall apart, is if it is common to open up older, good compression, engines and find there is no glaze.

If well performing engines typically don't have glaze, and the cross hatch is fairly present, then the premise of the piece falls apart. As they are claiming "glaze is good", necessary even.

But, if glazing of good compression older motors is typical or always seen; then it can logically follow that glaze is not necessarily "bad".

I don't know the answer to that. I only opened up my engine, had poor compression in 2-3... and its glazed 1-2-3-4.

650ed wrote: Very interesting article - thanks. So, are stock Kawasaki KZ rings cast iron or chrome? Ed

Makes me wonder too. I don't know.

LarryC wrote: I know guys that just spray the cylinders out with brake cleaner before installing them. I"ve seen guys wash them out in the parts washer and blow them dry. I've seen things carefully prepped and basically slapped together at dealerships. I've seen J motors torn down for warranty cranks, the blocks slapped right back on with the old rings....nothing touched, honed...what have you.... AND I can tell you that when it came right down to it.... as long as the bore job was not worn out to begin with....the rings seated just fine... And that comes from decades of dealing with these engines.

I don't condone doing things like that. I don't practice it... But it's REAL WORLD and It happens every single day and not just with bikes either.
.

Back when dinosaur tails were what we used for honing...... they used to make slightly oversized ring sets and people would just run a hone and put the old pistons back in with the oversized rings. If you had an engine blowing oil, the new rings would cut in and fix it and give you maybe 50k miles of run until it needed a rebuild.