TOPIC:

madmatt1 wrote: Is it possible I have just been driving it like this & didn't know it? (Like maybe when I assembled the engine, I got them to line up on assembly, and called it good before setting chain tension and rotating the crank.) Is this small of a timing difference really enough for most people to notice when the engine is running? Because it seemed to run very well to me.

It sounds like you have everything timed up as it should be and I would just re-assemble with your Liska parts and wider valve lash if you have the shims available.
The cam chain marks hardly ever line up perfectly with the top of the head due to manufacturing tolerances, cam chain wear etc.
The exhaust timing arrow mark is usually a couple of mm above the gasket face.
As long as it isn't a full tooth out and you have the correct 28 pin count back from the next pin back all will be ok and the engine will run just fine.

Dale Walker has a vedio "Step By Step Cam Degreeing, so anyone can easily learn "

www.holeshot.com/tools/cam_degreeing_kit.html

Dale Walker has a vedio "Step By Step Cam Degreeing, so anyone can easily learn "

I definitely plan to learn how. One of the techs at the dealership I work at is a mechanical genius, and a drag racer who builds his own engines. SO, I'm guessing he could probably teach me as well.

It still seems to me that there should be a means of evening out the two cams without having to degree them. All of my timing components are new, and are all Liska parts. The cam chain seems to me to be the last piece to this puzzle. I haven't measured it yet. Partly because I am not sure how to do so accurately, and partly because I had myself convinced that it couldn't be bad with only 40,000 miles on it. (I've thrown that notion out the window)
Can anyone tell me what the best way is to measure the chain? I know the manual says to put about 11 lbs of tension on it, and measure center to center of 20 links. This seems really impractical to do while the chain is still in the engine!? Would I get close enough to hold it tight and have someone else measure it?

40,000 miles give or take depending on how well the engine has been maintained is the accepted mileage for cam chain life so yours is probably due to be renewed.
Without slotted cam sprockets there is no way to alter the crank to exhaust cam timing relation as this is dependant on cam chain length/wear.
Varying the height of the top idler by using different thickness blocks under it could be used to alter the inlet cam timing a few degrees but it's not worth the bother and you might as well do it right with a fresh cam chain.

My KZ650 is a different model, so apples / oranges may apply here, but I have more than 56,000 miles (many of them pretty aggressive in my youth) and my cam chain is still fine.

Take a look in your Kawasaki Service Manual. If the one for your model is similar to mine it describes how to measure the cam chain. Of course, if you have the engine pulled apart for other reasons it certainly wouldn't hurt to install a new chain. Ed

Yeah, you know I'm just so used to hearing people say that they have 80,000 or 120,000 miles on their original cam chain, etc, that at some point I made up my mind it must be fine & I didn't need to check it.
Measuring the chain is one of the very few subjects that is extremely vague in the manual. I don't remember the exact wording, but it basically says "use some means to place 5kg of tension on chain and measure the length of 20 pins". Oh yeah, no problem!

No eBay APP ID and/or Cert ID defined in Kunena configurationIt all depends on how hard a life they have had.
A chain that has been kept properly tensioned with frequent oil changes and in an engine that has been smoothly ridden will fair better than one that been thrashed and abused all it's life.
The only real way to tell is to perform the tension/length test but a well worn chain can be easily spotted as there will be obvious movement in the links at the rollers and pins and it will have a general "loose" feel to it.
As for measuring the chain in situ, you need to remove the cams to get at the right length of chain and use one of those small spring loaded hook scales like the type for weighing fish etc to pull on it or a digital one like this ..

You will need a spare pair of hands to do the measuring.

I don't think the previous owner was aware that when you install a manual tensioner, it means you have to manually adjust it. It was quite loose when I bought it, as was just about everything else on the bike.

I've put a couple new chains in Hondas before, so in comparison to a new one, yeah this thing feels quite worn.
I just happen to have one of those spring loaded scales in my tackle box! I'll have to have my girlfriend give me a hand measuring it hahaha... I guess I know what the cold hard fact is, but I just want to see how out of spec this thing is, just so I know.

The stupid thing is that I just rebuilt the top end of this motor. I'm really kicking myself in the ass for not addressing this at that time. I guess I'll just finish off the rest of the season "as is" and if I get so ambitious this winter, maybe tear it all apart again

Thanks again for all the help!

I think I read that a new cam chain (master link type) can be installed from the top if you split the old chain then hook the end of the new chain to it and carefully turn the crank slowly and it will feed the new chain through and up. Then install the new link on the new chain ends and you got it.

Never tried it but sounds like it will work as long as you keep tension on the chain so it can't slip and kink on the crank gear.

Oh yes, that could definitely be done. There's just something about riveting a cam chain that gives me the heebie-jeebies. I I've riveted drive chains together before, and had no problems. I know a lot of guys have done it, and I haven't heard any horror stories....but I dunno. I feel like this bike and I have had some pretty shitty luck thus far, and I feel a little uneasy pushing it!

Well, if there is anyone who is curious to see how this all panned out, here it is....

For those who are just tuning in, I almost gave myself a brain aneurysm trying to figure out why I couldn't get my cam timing to check out to factory specs. I installed a Liska chain idler and APE aluminum spacer blocks this weekend. Fired up the bike afterwards to hear an awful racket of chain slapping and general dissatisfaction from my zed's engine.

The slapping and clacking? After you install these aforementioned items, CHECK YOUR CHAIN TENSION. I didn't. I should have known better, but I didn't realize just how much these pieces slacken the chain vs. the OEM components. At least they did for me. I can't get my cam timing dialed in, and it is inevitably because my chain is stretched. After many hours of doing things over and over, and studying the relation of the chain, adjuster, and idler to the cam timing, I finally get it, and understand how one thing affects another. It sucked, and I got majorly stressed out, but I am glad I investigated the whole thing and got some advice from the KZ veterans. (One of my purposes in life is to be a torch carrier for these wonderful machines, and I can't even describe how grateful I am to get advice from you guys who know more about them than I do. ) So the end result is that the intake cam is a little retarded in comparison to the exhaust. I can't do anything about it right now unless I want to change out the cam chain. Having just rebuilt the top end of this engine, I'm just not feeling it. But what does SHE say?

I reassembled today and fired her up. Instant bliss at the touch of the starter. She purs like a kitten at 1000 rpm and makes power anywhere you want her to, from a stand still, up until you see red... just like any zed should. Now... I will not be 100% content in my own mind, until I replace my worn cam chain.... and install some adjustable sprockets if necessary after that.... but for now, the bike still runs like a top, and makes me smile from the instant she starts up until the upper register of the tach

I've had a few drinks tonight. Forgive my drawn-out and elaborate tale. I just want to say thanks to my fellow kzrider brethren. Zed lives, and she's quite spry.

The original cam sprocket slotting tool.