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missinng, lurching, and popping, oh my! 10 May 2014 07:01 #632017

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Reconfigured condensor connection insulators last night...not so bad, having done it a few times now... Had no spark at all... now, I've Got what looks to me like a weak spark on 1&4, nothing on 2&3. Have a nice full 12 v at both coils. Am still reading continuity between green & black, green & plate, and black & plate...is this normal, or do I still have something wrong? Any feedback greatly appreciated. Would like to ride the dern thing,LOL!
1978 KZ650 B2
Former rides...1976 CB360T, 1985 Shadow 700, 1985 GPZ750Turbo

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missinng, lurching, and popping, oh my! 10 May 2014 07:26 #632018

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With your voltmeter probe 1 lead to the ground (points) side of the coil other lead to ground. Key on roll the motor over with the kickstarter the voltage should drop to less than 1 volt when the points close-if not move down to the points and repeat-the coil fires as the points open-sounds like you have an open circuit between coils/points or points aren't grounding the circuit.
1979 ltd 1260 1980 ltd 1075 2005 450x for the desert

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missinng, lurching, and popping, oh my! 10 May 2014 08:24 #632027

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I suggest you carefully examine and adjust the points. Are they new? If not, new ones might be a good idea. In the mean time you can dress the points with very fine emery cloth to smooth out any bumps that may be the result of pitting.

New or not, I would adjust them. Here's what has always worked very well for me:

The manual has several pages of instructions, pictures, etc. on how to set the timing using the static method plus timing light, plus dwell meter. I can give you a fairly easy way that will get you in a pretty close ballpark without a timing light or dwell meter, but you will need a 0.35 mm feeler gauge and a multi-meter or other device to test continuity. To be very precise, the timing light and dwell meter will be needed.

Before attempting to replace or adjust the points the following is important to understand; timing is comprised of two separate components, and BOTH of these components MUST be set properly if the engine is to run well:

--- The GAP - this is the distance the points spread apart when fully open. The GAP is the element that determines the DWELL. In essence, the DWELL is the number of degrees of points cam rotation that the points are closed and this controls the amount of time the coils receive a charge before firing the spark plugs.

--- The TIMING of the initial opening of the points (the point at which the continuity across the points breaks). This controls the precise instant that the coils receive the signal to fire the spark plugs.

Remove the points cover on the right side of engine. Under it you will see 2 sets of points. The set on the left fires cylinders 1 & 4; the set on the right fires 2 & 3. When replacing points observe carefully how the little bits and pieces are arranged where the wires attach. Some of those pieces are actually insulators and if you leave any of them out or put them back in the wrong place the points will be grounded and won't work. Take a very close look at the contact surfaces of the points. If they are pitted you really should replace them. You can sand down pitted points, but they will quickly pit again. Replace one set of points at a time so you can look at the other set in case you get the little bits confused.

Use a 17 mm wrench to turn the nut NEAR the end of the crankshaft clockwise while looking in the hole above that nut. (Do NOT use a wrench on the smaller bolt on the very end of the crankshaft to turn the engine.) Inside that hole you will see a vertical pointer cast into the casing. As you turn the 17 mm nut you will see a 1 & 4 and F and T roll by and then you'll see a 2 & 3 and F and T roll by. Each F and T has a line next to it.

Here's the method I use for static timing. I turn OFF the ignition. I disconnect the green wire near one coil and the black wire near the other coil. (This is not in the book, but it makes checking continuity much easier for me.) After installing the new points or cleaning up the old ones, turn the 17 mm nut while watching the points. When points set 1&4 are at their widest gap adjust them (by loosening the 2 screws that hold the points to the backplate) so the gap equals 0.35 mm. Turn the 17 mm nut clockwise through a full revolution again and double check this gap. Then repeat this for points set 3&4. Now set your meter to test continuity and clip one wire to the leaf spring on points set 1&4 and clip the other wire to ground. Turn the 17 mm nut clockwise until the 1&4 "F" mark aligns with the pointer mentioned above. You want the continuity across point set 1&4 to just break when the F mark aligns with the pointer. The idea is that when the continuity just fails is when the points will fire their respective coil and cylinders. In order to adjust the point at which continuity fails you loosen the 3 screws that hold the backplate to the engine and slightly turn the backplate until the meter shows a break in continuity. Once you have the 1&4 set timed properly you can check the 2&3 set to make sure they break when the 2&3 F mark aligns with the pointer (they should or something is not right). Don't forget to plug in the green and black coil wires when you are done, and put a little grease on the rubbing block felt. Assuming you are using new points of the correct type this should enable you to get the timing very close. Trying this with old points may give poor results, especially if the points are pitted and/or the rubbing blocks are worn.

After you have set the gap (which in effect sets the dwell) and the timing using the method above you can use a dwell meter and timing light to fine tune dwell and timing. If you have followed the above procedure carefully, very little if any fine tuning will be needed.
Sorry this is so long. It's not as difficult as it sounds. Ed
1977 KZ650-C1 Original Owner - Stock (with additional invisible FIAMM horn)

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missinng, lurching, and popping, oh my! 10 May 2014 08:24 #632028

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Kinda like playing twister..could not kick without a helper to man the meter so I used the 17mm bolt at points to turn engine...did see drop at coils as mentioned...where on the points plate shoud I be placing probes to test there?
1978 KZ650 B2
Former rides...1976 CB360T, 1985 Shadow 700, 1985 GPZ750Turbo

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missinng, lurching, and popping, oh my! 10 May 2014 09:43 #632032

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Check at the wire coming in from the coils- if you are achieving a voltage drop on both coils when the points close it's not necessary-the points are grounding the circuit to saturate the primary side of the coil I.E. operating properly. As suggested would move on to point gap/timing.
1979 ltd 1260 1980 ltd 1075 2005 450x for the desert

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Last edit: by KZ Rat. Reason: corrected

missinng, lurching, and popping, oh my! 10 May 2014 09:50 #632033

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Reresistors in old plug caps all tested good, but brand new dyna wires with new caps...points look good to me shiny & smooth...shit went bad so quickly...amazing! on to gapping, &c I guess... :woohoo: thanx all!
1978 KZ650 B2
Former rides...1976 CB360T, 1985 Shadow 700, 1985 GPZ750Turbo

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missinng, lurching, and popping, oh my! 10 May 2014 11:20 #632038

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The saying goes "a lesson hard learned is a lesson well learned" the points were WAY the hell off....reset...vroom vroom! I guess all the new ignition parts won't hurt anything, LOL! I greatly appreciate all of your kind forebearance of a noob....thanx so much, all! Thus endeth the thread...ride safe
1978 KZ650 B2
Former rides...1976 CB360T, 1985 Shadow 700, 1985 GPZ750Turbo

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missinng, lurching, and popping, oh my! 10 May 2014 12:34 #632046

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Glad to hear that fixed it! Ed
1977 KZ650-C1 Original Owner - Stock (with additional invisible FIAMM horn)

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missinng, lurching, and popping, oh my! 16 Jul 2014 15:32 #640284

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Sorry for bumping this, but I am wrestling the same gator...had a little problem a couple weeks ago...not too serious, mostly stuff that I wanted td replace anyway, but points cover got smashed, both cover screws and advancer bolt bent. Advancer itself seems to have a slight bend where the weight plate meets the shaft. Don't THINK it's a problem. A slight wobble of the weights mebbe. Can't get her fired up to tell. New points and condensors (again). Different brand and doesn't use the fiber insulators. Has a 2 pc system (plastic) with a smaller flange to center insulators, doing away with the barrel insulator. I have been through this till I am ready to drop a wick in the tank. I have continuity between plate & either points, and betwen both points alone. What on EARTH am I missing?

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1978 KZ650 B2
Former rides...1976 CB360T, 1985 Shadow 700, 1985 GPZ750Turbo
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missinng, lurching, and popping, oh my! 16 Jul 2014 15:45 #640285

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Forgive me if this is a dumb question, but when you check continuity is the set of points you're testing open or closed? Ed
1977 KZ650-C1 Original Owner - Stock (with additional invisible FIAMM horn)

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missinng, lurching, and popping, oh my! 16 Jul 2014 16:12 #640290

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Ummm... it would appear that dumb questions are more in my wheelhouse. Tucked a business card between both seperately...no continuity. I think I have internalized that aspect at least. Thanx! My new autoranging meter isn't giving me good news though...while I have close to full voltage at coils. Down at the points I get fluctuation, but it's in millavolts not volts....thought plate assembly mightbe cause. Still scratching head, but thanx for the clarity !
1978 KZ650 B2
Former rides...1976 CB360T, 1985 Shadow 700, 1985 GPZ750Turbo

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missinng, lurching, and popping, oh my! 16 Jul 2014 17:06 #640301

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I have followed ed's timing tute to the letter....continuity beep stops nowhere NEAR "F" markings for either point. Plate Slots are not long enough, so I KNOW I have messed something up somewhere...what the what? It reads so wonderfully clear & concise...I feel like I understand the process, but ? Advancer has only a half pin, so I know it is not 180 degrees out. Only goes on one way...aargh! Where have I botched?
1978 KZ650 B2
Former rides...1976 CB360T, 1985 Shadow 700, 1985 GPZ750Turbo

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