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TOPIC: Kz1000 Big bang firing order and crossplane cranks

Kz1000 Big bang firing order and crossplane cranks 4 years 7 months ago #337014

I noticed that there is almost no information on crossplane cranks and big bang firing orders involved with kz's. i know that it is possible to do with a pressed together crank like on the kz's, with of course the propper cam grind. but has anyone ever done it to a kz1000 or 900? i have found people switching the kz750 twin to a 90 degree firing order (1-1-0-0) the cams to do it to the 750 as i have been told are also available.

of course i can only immagine how much it would cost to get a specially designed set of cams made for a 1000. but it would be the only real cost of achieving this goal if you have the capability to disassemble and reassemble a crank and re work the points to fire the coils propperly.

any ideas?
1979 Kz1000 MKII road racer project
1994 Seca II, pile in the corner
1973 Honda cb175 cafe racer
1971 Yamaha AT1
1975 Massey Fergusson MF440
1971 Skiroule 300rr
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Re:Kz1000 Big bang firing order and crossplane cranks 4 years 7 months ago #337028

  • BSKZ650
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ummm, why would you want to do that?, I dont see any advantage
77 kz650, owned for over 25 years
77 ltd1000, current rider
76 kz900, just waiting
73 z1,, gonna restore this one
piglet, leggero harley davidson
SR, Ride captian, S.E.Texas Patriot Guard Riders.. AKA KawaBob
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Re:Kz1000 Big bang firing order and crossplane cranks 4 years 7 months ago #337037

  • PLUMMEN
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eeeeeeeeek techno talk,save yourselves boys! :laugh:
cartoom_manga_61-634f4a834f447197c3beaf90add80e9c.jpg
Still recovering
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Re:Kz1000 Big bang firing order and crossplane cranks 4 years 7 months ago #337040

haha, i totaly forgot to mention the advantages of this setup. SO, if anyone follows racing (motogp in particular) many many many race engines (all motogp engines) have this configuration of their cylinders. it allows the rider to have more control over rear wheel spin in a slide or when starting to slide. Also most people do it to twins because it is cheaper and produces an almost vtwin like effeck on the powerband. giving a much higher take off speed from a dead stop. (not for drag racing) the new yamaha r1 production bike also uses this method. and on top of all of this. a bike pushing this firind order would sound like the singing of angels from the heavens.
1979 Kz1000 MKII road racer project
1994 Seca II, pile in the corner
1973 Honda cb175 cafe racer
1971 Yamaha AT1
1975 Massey Fergusson MF440
1971 Skiroule 300rr
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Re:Kz1000 Big bang firing order and crossplane cranks 4 years 7 months ago #337041

i am going to be track racing my 400 lb kz by the way. not having all that kz torque throw me off my bike from wheel hop would be nice
1979 Kz1000 MKII road racer project
1994 Seca II, pile in the corner
1973 Honda cb175 cafe racer
1971 Yamaha AT1
1975 Massey Fergusson MF440
1971 Skiroule 300rr
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Re:Kz1000 Big bang firing order and crossplane cranks 4 years 7 months ago #337047

Captaingamez wrote:
i am going to be track racing my 400 lb kz by the way. not having all that kz torque throw me off my bike from wheel hop would be nice

Are you talking about wheel hop from acceleration or deceleration?

I highly doubt you'll have to worry about spinning the rear wheel coming off of corners with today's tire technology and the power amount even a hopped-up Kz can produce.

And in order to control wheel hop on decel, a slipper clutch would be the best option and that wouldn't be cheap but cheaper than a custom crank and set of cams.

Later, Doug
1978 z1000 Streetfighter
1976 z900 Stripfighter(work in progress)
1983 Gpz750
1989 Gsxr750
1989 Vmax
2000 Bandit 600
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Re:Kz1000 Big bang firing order and crossplane cranks 4 years 7 months ago #337050

actually wheel hop because of the weight of my bike has already become a minor issue on the road. if i was actually trying to go faster it would become more of an issue. on a lightened race bike the kz engine's torque delivery becomes a bit of an issue in itself. though a slipper clutch would probably do the job just the same and i had made a post about that as well which i recieved little feedback on.

this isnt really something i was planning to do on the cheap. i have my own shop capabilities to re-phase the crank so thats not the issue. as i said the only cost for me in any case would be the cams, since i dont have a cnc grinder.

or the clutch, which i could do in addition and have nearly perfect traction in the corners. the main reason in any case to have a big bang firing order is because you have a particularly light bike with a particularly high ammount of horsepower and torque. (I.E. MotoGP, Superbike, ect)

My real question was if anyone has ever attempted it before, as i said i know people who have done it to a 750 twin And i just read about someone who did it to a cb750k which i would deem much more dificult and would require a custom crank. yamaha actually does it to most of their foreign large capacity twins as well.

and come on guys any power hungry gearhead can see why this would be an awesome setup y must we be stuck with 1-2-4-3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1979 Kz1000 MKII road racer project
1994 Seca II, pile in the corner
1973 Honda cb175 cafe racer
1971 Yamaha AT1
1975 Massey Fergusson MF440
1971 Skiroule 300rr
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Re:Kz1000 Big bang firing order and crossplane cranks 4 years 7 months ago #337052

  • PLUMMEN
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ive seen differant camshafts for chevy v8s to change firing order like youre talking.i figure theres enough other issues like junk frames,brakes,tires........ that are enough to keep my mind spinning without reinventing the crankshaft and cams on these motors,which by the way i feel is the strong point of these bikes to begin with,bulletproof simple motor! :laugh:
Still recovering
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Re:Kz1000 Big bang firing order and crossplane cranks 4 years 7 months ago #337071

  • flht1997
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I understand why MotoGP does this, but they were running into traction problems when the engines were approaching 250hp. even with a very well built big block kz1000 based engine i doubt you could even tell its been done other than a different exhaust note.
Matt Milwaukee, WI
75' KZ400, (5) 78' KZ400, 76' KZ 750, 78' KZ650
78'CB750F, 78' CB550K
89' BMW R100RT
05' H-D Electra Glide
06' KLR650
Do it right or don't bother doing it at all.
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Re:Kz1000 Big bang firing order and crossplane cranks 4 years 7 months ago #337085

Captaingamez wrote:
actually wheel hop because of the weight of my bike has already become a minor issue on the road. if i was actually trying to go faster it would become more of an issue. on a lightened race bike the kz engine's torque delivery becomes a bit of an issue in itself.

You didn't answer my question. Is the wheel hop occuring acceleration or deceleration?

Later, Doug
1978 z1000 Streetfighter
1976 z900 Stripfighter(work in progress)
1983 Gpz750
1989 Gsxr750
1989 Vmax
2000 Bandit 600
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Re:Kz1000 Big bang firing order and crossplane cranks 4 years 7 months ago #337086

  • PLUMMEN
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flht1997 wrote:
I understand why MotoGP does this, but they were running into traction problems when the engines were approaching 250hp. even with a very well built big block kz1000 based engine i doubt you could even tell its been done other than a different exhaust note.
250hp is crazy enough in a straight line,couldnt imagine it in a hard corner full throttle! :woohoo:
Still recovering
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Re:Kz1000 Big bang firing order and crossplane cranks 4 years 7 months ago #337131

  • larrycavan
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Kawasaki has something brewing ZX10wise that you might want to research.

It's power to weight that's going to determine traction problems as much as anything.

I never fault anyone for wanting to think outside the box. If the skills are there to make use of, then "even if" the end doesn't justify the means.......it can be worth the effort from other aspects.

What you learn from one thing can be applied somwhere else in future.......generally anyway ;)

Rob Muzzy coaxed 152HP out of Eddie's bike. I believe it was 1015cc but may have been 1025 at the time.The guys on the Kawasaki Hotline were housed in the same building back then. We had a discussion about the motors after the litre bike race team was abandoned in 83.

According to what I was told way back then, that particular engine didn't run very well below 7000 RPM or so. Now if you're contemplating going that radical with a roadrace engine in an old Kawasaki chassis....God bless you and hopefully someone else isn't saying "God rest his soul" :laugh:

If you were crazy enough to wander down that path, then it might be worth the effort :ohmy:

What I can tell you is, it's not going to be cheap. I doubt anyone even has cam cores to start with so they would probably be a pricy item....IF you got someone to do it.

If you're serious, call Web or CamMotion and start right there. That will determine if you're even going to get to first base..
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Re:Kz1000 Big bang firing order and crossplane cranks 4 years 7 months ago #337140

  • Becker
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There is another reason that this is done to cranks. On four cylinders the power comes on all at once which effectively stretches the tire at the contact patch and then it takes a revolution off and lets everything catch up. This effect was mentioned already with the reduction of wheel hop. The other advantage is the pistons never come to a complete stop. In an engine with a 180 degree crank all four pistions come to a complete stop and then have to overcome friction to start moving again. In an engine with 90 degree crank throws while number one is stopping at the top No. 2 is reaching max speed downward, No.3 is reaching max speed upward, and No.4 is reaching a stop at the bottom. This way only half of the pistons are stopping at one time. There are other variations of the 90 degree crank too.

The biggest problem of this crank is that they need a balancer. You could prolly get by without one but who knows. I know the R1 and MotoGP bikes use them. Good luck if you decide to go through with it but for all the work, I would probably look into frame modifications and rear shock settings first. Not to mention better rear tires. Just a guess but I think you could tune wheel hop out enough that it shouldn't be a problem. These are old flexible frames not motoGP bikes. That being said. It'd be cool to do it just to do it.
78 KZ750B3
79 KZ400 LTD
78 KZ650C2
79 KZ650C3
78 KZ650B2A
80 KZ650F1
80 KZ650E1
81 CB750K Super Sport
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Re:Kz1000 Big bang firing order and crossplane cranks 4 years 7 months ago #338912

  • testarossa
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It seems that the cost to benifit ratio would be two high to make this feasable on a KZ. On the other hand, have you heard the new R-1? It's hard to fathom that exhaust note coming from an inline four. That would be my favorite reason to do the change.
1978 KZ1000 A2 Click--->Build Thread
1982 CB750F
2004 ZX-10R
Spring, TX
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Re:Kz1000 Big bang firing order and crossplane cranks 4 years 7 months ago #338945

  • hugo
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Cross plane crankshaft makes each piston 90 degrees apart from each other, instead of the customary 180 degrees between the two outboard cylinders and the two inboard ones. Each plug fires at 90 degrees of rotation, instead of 180. Four coils are needed. The result is raising a little the torque curve at the bottom, like a triple, at the expense of reducing a little the 'perfect' balance of the four.

It is practical for racing, where cost is not object, or for Yamaha on the R1 trying to best the triples, but trying to convert a KZ would be more expensive than buying a R1 in my opinion. It is not just the crank, it would also need an entire new ignition system with four coils.
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Re:Kz1000 Big bang firing order and crossplane cranks 4 years 7 months ago #339407

  • tjk
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Just a little note: a "crossplane" crank design and a "big-bang" firing order are not the same thing. The 90-degree firing-order of a crossplane crank as used by Yamaha puts the power-pulses closer together to get LESS shock to the rear tire all at once. A "big-bang" design makes a STRONGER power pulse, less-often, to give the tire more time to recover between power pulses. Ducati did this briefly, then went with a "normal" firing-order on its V4s because the "big-bang" engine was breaking cranks. It was "big-bang" because it fired two cylinders at a time, like two simultaneous twins, rather than running like a normal four-cylinder; the idea being that twins had always had a traction advantage on turns over fours, but were struggling against the performance of fours on the straights.
FIDO
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Re:Kz1000 Big bang firing order and crossplane cranks 4 years 7 months ago #339465

  • 893cv
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Could'nt you get most of the "Big Bang" effect by just replacing the cams with ones that are setup to have 1&4 fire at the same time and 2&3 fire at the same time? That would give you 2 cylinders firing, 180 degrees of crank rotation, 2 cylinders firing, 540 degrees of crank rotation before starting again. You wont even have to mod the ignition system or the crank.
1980 kz1000 LTD
1978 Z1R
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Re:Kz1000 Big bang firing order and crossplane cranks 4 years 7 months ago #339468

  • nads.com
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Man, I'm getting cranked out. Whats that big bang? Cops! Run!
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Re:Kz1000 Big bang firing order and crossplane cranks 4 years 7 months ago #339469

  • loudhvx
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893cv wrote:
Could'nt you get most of the "Big Bang" effect by just replacing the cams with ones that are setup to have 1&4 fire at the same time and 2&3 fire at the same time? That would give you 2 cylinders firing, 180 degrees of crank rotation, 2 cylinders firing, 540 degrees of crank rotation before starting again. You wont even have to mod the ignition system or the crank.
You could, but then it would sound like a big CB350. It would probably vibrate like one too. I never did like the way those 180-deg honda twins sounded or felt. The 360 deg KZ twins sounded and felt much better. Too bad they were so heavy.
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Re:Kz1000 Big bang firing order and crossplane cranks 4 years 7 months ago #339472

  • nads.com
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Pokes his head out of basement level crack house, white powder face, drum beats sounding in his ear, looking to the van across the street there in the drivers seat is the money he could have saved with an inline four. must have lost traction shortly after the big bang.
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