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Using a drill as an electric starter?
- Nerdy
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06 Jul 2023 10:36 #886911
by Nerdy
1979 KZ400 Gifted to a couple of nephews
1967 Yamaha YCS1 Bonanza
1980 KZ440B
1981 Yamaha XT250H
1981 KZ440 LTD project bike
1981 GPz550
2013 Yamaha FZ6R
Using a drill as an electric starter? was created by Nerdy
On a smaller bike that is kickstart only, could I create a temporary electric starter using a drill?
Formula 1 cars use something like that, but it is pneumatic and pretty powerful. I'm picturing something smaller, because I'd like to be able to start the bike while it's on the stand and kicking is not possible.
What I'm considering is taking a spare kickstarter, removing the end that goes over the splined shaft on the engine, and welding that end to a flat piece that is in turn welded to a short piece of heavy steel rod that can go into the chuck on the drill. If the drill is set to turn counter-clockwise it should emulate the kicking motion but in a continuous fashion. It would likely need to turn slowly to align with human kicking speed. If the cordless drill is not strong enough, which is entirely possible, I have 3/8" and 1/2" corded drills that should get the job done.
Or... Because the kickstarter is designed to go through 90 or 100 degrees of motion - kick, reset, kick, reset, etc. - is the pawl that engages the shaft going to fail because it wasn't meant to go all the way around? I might need to disassemble it to know for sure [to see if there is any interference]. I'm thinking specifically of part #5 in this diagram:
Has anyone here ever tried this?
Formula 1 cars use something like that, but it is pneumatic and pretty powerful. I'm picturing something smaller, because I'd like to be able to start the bike while it's on the stand and kicking is not possible.
What I'm considering is taking a spare kickstarter, removing the end that goes over the splined shaft on the engine, and welding that end to a flat piece that is in turn welded to a short piece of heavy steel rod that can go into the chuck on the drill. If the drill is set to turn counter-clockwise it should emulate the kicking motion but in a continuous fashion. It would likely need to turn slowly to align with human kicking speed. If the cordless drill is not strong enough, which is entirely possible, I have 3/8" and 1/2" corded drills that should get the job done.
Or... Because the kickstarter is designed to go through 90 or 100 degrees of motion - kick, reset, kick, reset, etc. - is the pawl that engages the shaft going to fail because it wasn't meant to go all the way around? I might need to disassemble it to know for sure [to see if there is any interference]. I'm thinking specifically of part #5 in this diagram:
Has anyone here ever tried this?
1967 Yamaha YCS1 Bonanza
1980 KZ440B
1981 Yamaha XT250H
1981 KZ440 LTD project bike
1981 GPz550
2013 Yamaha FZ6R
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- Warren3200gt
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06 Jul 2023 10:50 - 06 Jul 2023 10:52 #886912
by Warren3200gt
Replied by Warren3200gt on topic Using a drill as an electric starter?
Rather than use the kicker splines why not use the nut on the end of the crank in the ignition housing.
Just need a socket to suit then and no worries about the kick shaft suitability.
As its on the stand you want to start it having the ignition cover off is no issue as your obviously not gonna ride off anyway.
Just need a socket to suit then and no worries about the kick shaft suitability.
As its on the stand you want to start it having the ignition cover off is no issue as your obviously not gonna ride off anyway.
Last edit: 06 Jul 2023 10:52 by Warren3200gt.
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06 Jul 2023 11:30 - 06 Jul 2023 11:31 #886916
by Nerdy
1979 KZ400 Gifted to a couple of nephews
1967 Yamaha YCS1 Bonanza
1980 KZ440B
1981 Yamaha XT250H
1981 KZ440 LTD project bike
1981 GPz550
2013 Yamaha FZ6R
Replied by Nerdy on topic Using a drill as an electric starter?
That's a much better idea! Why didn't I think of that?
It uses existing features and parts, and it means no welding (which is good, because I'm not great at it yet). Cheers, mate!
It uses existing features and parts, and it means no welding (which is good, because I'm not great at it yet). Cheers, mate!
1967 Yamaha YCS1 Bonanza
1980 KZ440B
1981 Yamaha XT250H
1981 KZ440 LTD project bike
1981 GPz550
2013 Yamaha FZ6R
Last edit: 06 Jul 2023 11:31 by Nerdy.
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- Wookie58
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06 Jul 2023 11:37 #886917
by Wookie58
Replied by Wookie58 on topic Using a drill as an electric starter?
Not sure how successful you will be with this, if you look at the starter clutch and starter pinion it's about an 8:1 ration to multiply the torque (paddock starters have a set of reduction gears in the nose) also how is it going to disengage when it starts paddock starters have a specially designed fitting to "cam out" the starter when the engine fires?
Love the pioneering spirit though
Love the pioneering spirit though
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- Injected
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06 Jul 2023 11:39 - 06 Jul 2023 11:45 #886918
by Injected
Replied by Injected on topic Using a drill as an electric starter?
Crank end nut is the only way to go if your not using a kick lever.
You would probably have to fabricate a steel nut, I don't think the aftermarket ever made a starter nut for a
engine that small (Z1 yes) not sure if the crank end taper is the same.
You would have to have a drill with a lot of torque, even with a stock 400cc engine.
You would probably have to fabricate a steel nut, I don't think the aftermarket ever made a starter nut for a
engine that small (Z1 yes) not sure if the crank end taper is the same.
You would have to have a drill with a lot of torque, even with a stock 400cc engine.
Last edit: 06 Jul 2023 11:45 by Injected. Reason: sp
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06 Jul 2023 11:46 #886919
by Nerdy
Much appreciated However, this is a kickstart only bike, so there is no starter clutch.
I've been pondering the question of disengagement. If I use a socket on an extension, and have the extension in the drill chuck, I might be able to separate the extension from the socket and then retrieve the socket from the engine after shutting it off.
OTOH if the drill is spinning under its own power while the engine is idling, perhaps that will allow the socket to disengage since there will be less tension (rotational tension?) on it.
1979 KZ400 Gifted to a couple of nephews
1967 Yamaha YCS1 Bonanza
1980 KZ440B
1981 Yamaha XT250H
1981 KZ440 LTD project bike
1981 GPz550
2013 Yamaha FZ6R
Replied by Nerdy on topic Using a drill as an electric starter?
Not sure how successful you will be with this, if you look at the starter clutch and starter pinion it's about an 8:1 ration to multiply the torque (paddock starters have a set of reduction gears in the nose) also how is it going to disengage when it starts paddock starters have a specially designed fitting to "cam out" the starter when the engine fires?
Love the pioneering spirit though
Much appreciated However, this is a kickstart only bike, so there is no starter clutch.
I've been pondering the question of disengagement. If I use a socket on an extension, and have the extension in the drill chuck, I might be able to separate the extension from the socket and then retrieve the socket from the engine after shutting it off.
OTOH if the drill is spinning under its own power while the engine is idling, perhaps that will allow the socket to disengage since there will be less tension (rotational tension?) on it.
1967 Yamaha YCS1 Bonanza
1980 KZ440B
1981 Yamaha XT250H
1981 KZ440 LTD project bike
1981 GPz550
2013 Yamaha FZ6R
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06 Jul 2023 11:50 #886920
by Nerdy
Also appreciated
And sorry, I should have been more clear: this is for a single-cylinder Yamaha 250, rather than a KZ. I was going to post this in the Engine category but then decided it should go in Bike Related to separate it from the Kaw content.
1979 KZ400 Gifted to a couple of nephews
1967 Yamaha YCS1 Bonanza
1980 KZ440B
1981 Yamaha XT250H
1981 KZ440 LTD project bike
1981 GPz550
2013 Yamaha FZ6R
Replied by Nerdy on topic Using a drill as an electric starter?
Crank end nut is the only way to go if your not using a kick lever.
You would probably have to fabricate a steel nut, I don't think the aftermarket ever made a starter nut for a
engine that small (Z1 yes) not sure if the crank end taper is the same.
You would have to have a drill with a lot of torque, even with a stock 400cc engine.
Also appreciated
And sorry, I should have been more clear: this is for a single-cylinder Yamaha 250, rather than a KZ. I was going to post this in the Engine category but then decided it should go in Bike Related to separate it from the Kaw content.
1967 Yamaha YCS1 Bonanza
1980 KZ440B
1981 Yamaha XT250H
1981 KZ440 LTD project bike
1981 GPz550
2013 Yamaha FZ6R
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06 Jul 2023 11:51 - 06 Jul 2023 11:52 #886921
by Wookie58
Replied by Wookie58 on topic Using a drill as an electric starter?
No worries, the starter clutch reference was to highlight the gearing required to spin the engine with an electric motor that size. As you can see the below "off the shelf" item also uses reduction gears
Last edit: 06 Jul 2023 11:52 by Wookie58.
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06 Jul 2023 11:53 #886922
by Warren3200gt
Replied by Warren3200gt on topic Using a drill as an electric starter?
You'll have no issue removing the socket. Once it fires you'll have more trouble keeping it on there than taking it off.
Wookie is right you'll need a big drill to turn it over. Especially if it's a large capacity single. I use a large kango type drill in rotation mode to start my bench builds and even that was touch n go powerful enough on a 1100 4 cylinder.
Wookie is right you'll need a big drill to turn it over. Especially if it's a large capacity single. I use a large kango type drill in rotation mode to start my bench builds and even that was touch n go powerful enough on a 1100 4 cylinder.
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06 Jul 2023 11:58 #886923
by Injected
Replied by Injected on topic Using a drill as an electric starter?
The starter motor I use on my 650 drag bike is off a Chrysler 440 V8 engine, 24 volts running off two 1000 CCA truck batteries.
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06 Jul 2023 12:08 #886924
by Nerdy
It's only a 250 with a CR of 9.2:1 IIRC. To me a large single is 500+cc - my brother had an XT600 and kicking that was an adventure.
The bigger corded drill is a 1/2" Craftsman from 40 years ago. It has a second handle that screws into the top, opposite the molded handle, so it doesn't twist out of your hands. It's a beast.
1979 KZ400 Gifted to a couple of nephews
1967 Yamaha YCS1 Bonanza
1980 KZ440B
1981 Yamaha XT250H
1981 KZ440 LTD project bike
1981 GPz550
2013 Yamaha FZ6R
Replied by Nerdy on topic Using a drill as an electric starter?
You'll have no issue removing the socket. Once it fires you'll have more trouble keeping it on there than taking it off.
Wookie is right you'll need a big drill to turn it over. Especially if it's a large capacity single. I use a large kango type drill in rotation mode to start my bench builds and even that was touch n go powerful enough on a 1100 4 cylinder.
It's only a 250 with a CR of 9.2:1 IIRC. To me a large single is 500+cc - my brother had an XT600 and kicking that was an adventure.
The bigger corded drill is a 1/2" Craftsman from 40 years ago. It has a second handle that screws into the top, opposite the molded handle, so it doesn't twist out of your hands. It's a beast.
1967 Yamaha YCS1 Bonanza
1980 KZ440B
1981 Yamaha XT250H
1981 KZ440 LTD project bike
1981 GPz550
2013 Yamaha FZ6R
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06 Jul 2023 12:11 #886926
by Wookie58
Replied by Wookie58 on topic Using a drill as an electric starter?
What have you got lose (except a garage window when the socket flys off
) just watch you don't break your wrist
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