Tube or Tubeless? '78 KZ1000 Ltd. mags

The tubeless wheel has the lip that holds the tire on the wheel, the tube type does not. Pictures kind of hard to see the difference, but if you have the wheels side by side there is a definate difference. Some tube type wheels even have the lip just for added safety I would assume or just to make tire changes more difficult as tubeless tires cannot be broke loose of the wheel without tools for the task.
You get a flat on a tubeless wheel/tire the tire stays on the wheel.
You get a flat on a tube type tire with a tube the tire comes off the wheel somewhat but the tube in there is enough to kind of give some support and give some control. Run a tubeless tire on a tube type wheel, without the tube and get a flat the tire comes off the wheel and it's free to go wherever it wants, no tube for support.

Thanks for pointing that out. I did notice that specific lip but it didn't make sense to me since it was on the inside of the rim. I don't see a flattened innertube keeping a tire on the rim, but it sure wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong. It seems that all wheels should have that to keep the bead secure.

After my wheels were widened I was told to run them tubeless - now I'm wondering if mine are safe. I'll have to look for some photos of my rims before the wheels were put on and see if there's that extra lip on there.

Thanks for the pics and explanation, recently bought some mags and thought tubeless was fine...now I know what to look for.

long time ago i modified a 78' Honda Comstar mag to take a tubeless valve stem and ran it without a tube. though i was king crap till i got a hole in my tire a mile from home at 60 mph when the tire pressure gets real low there is nothing holding the bead on the outside of the rim and it get real hairy real fast. i kept the bike upright but i think i pooped out a square turd from that one. if you have a tube rim, run a tube in it.
i was stupid for trying.

these are the kind of answers i like to see, ones that keep our members from hurting them selves or worse. this kind of info can actually save lives, good explanations and great warnings. nice job guy's now if only everybody can use this type of wisdom.

If you want to make double sure go to the bike shop and show them the rim. So, the 78 rims were straight then? I guess I remember that from looking at some of the mags from Redline Cycle but for some reason I thought they were the early 76 mags. Swap them out for the newer rims. They are fairly abundant. I know my rims were good to go tubeless. I was told by several mechanics throughout the years and I never decided to go tubeless till last year. Mine do have the inner lip and I have been lucky and have only had five rear tires pick up a nail but they went flat at top speed and the tires never came off the rim. The first time it sounded like a gunshot and then when I came to a stop the tire was wagging a little bit. If the front tire went flat, and I pray it never does, I think I would do more than crap a turd.
I know of people who like putting tubes in new bikes for added safety even though they were designed for tubless. I was told the tires wear out from the added heat the tube causes.

The question still remains... If you get a flat tire with that type rim what is going to keep that tire on the rim??? The tube is gone there is nothing to keep the pressure on the beads. I think the newer rims have to be safer with the inner lip.
I also had asked these guys about it the rim was designed to go tubeless why didn't they put that on the rim? The response was that the older mags were made of a more porous aluminum and because of that fact the tires wouldn't hold the air in as long.

My understanding is that running a tubeless tire without a tube on a tube style rim (i.e., no ridge) entails higher risk of a blow-out (dangerous) rather than a slow-out (less dangerous).

For example, hitting a pothole could result in an instant flat front tire as the untubed tire edge jumps the unridged wheel rim (which isn't apt to happen on a ridged tubeless tire wheel rim); whereas with a tube on an unridged rim, the tire is far less apt to lose air pressure or jump the rim.

Tubed tires may remain intact, and perhaps undamaged, even after hitting a pothole hard enough to dent the wheel rim. Am guessing an untubed tire on a tube style (unridged) rim would jump the rim in this situation.

Riders running tubeless on tube style (unridged) rims are at higher risk, but might be lucky enough to never hit a pothole or significant road bump. Here's hoping they have a working "bell."

Good Fortune!

Even if the wheel has "tubeless" cast in it, still look for the tubeless bead safety lip.
A friend of mine has a 78 1000 Shafty and kept having flats on the front. The front wheel is clearly marked as "tubeless" but when the tire was removed, it did not have the bead safety lip on the inside.
I put a tube in it and he has had no more flats.

Thanks Patton. So, a pothole, what about the whole tube failure scenario at speed? If you are cruising at highway speeds if you get a flat the inner tube is only going to be good for so long before it goes flat and when it does it stands to reason that you no longer have that safety on a tube rim.
Well, let me apolegize for giving any such information as I did as I won't mention it again. It is a safety issue. I feel it is a safety issue no matter how you look at it with tube tire rims. Wherever possible I have upgraded my bike from original so that it works better ie., headlight system, electrical, engine, etc.

saxjonz wrote:

... what about the whole tube failure scenario at speed? If you are cruising at highway speeds if you get a flat the inner tube is only going to be good for so long before it goes flat and when it does it stands to reason that you no longer have that safety on a tube rim....

Seems logical to me. Given the choice in a higher speed blowout, would opt for having the ridged style tubeless rim to help hold the tire onto the rim even when flat.

Just needing that extra few seconds of slightly better control to get slowed down.

Good Fortune!

I must be missing something here - I'm just not getting it. :blink: How does that safety ridge on the INSIDE of the bead keep the tire on the rim? Wouldn't the tire just slip off the OUTSIDE of the rim anyway? And how would a flat innertube help to keep the tire from slipping off that outside edge? It seems that the inner ridge is too far toward the inside to help keep the bead sealed against the outside of the rim.

I can see where a hard impact could break the bead loose on a tubeless tire and cause in a sudden loss of all pressure, but how does that inner ridge keep that from happening? I always imagined it was something locking the tire bead securely against the outer sealing surface of the rim.

I'm not questioning you guys, but I'd really like to understand this. What am I not seeing?

RonKZ650 wrote:

The lip on the inside of the rim "supports" the bead from "sliding" towards the inside of the wheel. With out the lip, the tire would be more able to slide towards the center of the rim (especially under a low tire pressure situation- with out a tube)
Air pressure ,itself, may keep the tire on the rim alone. The lip is an added safety feature to help the tire stay in place on the rim. A clean bead area is vital to keeping air in the tubeless tire also.