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TOPIC: Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries?

Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries? 20 May 2019 06:02 #804224

  • dpivas7
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Just to let everyone know what I did: I did as old_kaw suggested.

I attached the 3 white wires to the 3 yellow stator wires, connected the 1 black to the black/yellow (ground), and I connected the 1 red to the red/white (B+). The red/white I believe (I did this on Saturday and am recalling from memory) went thru the starter relay into the B+ terminal.

Thanks everyone for the help and the information on how Regulator/Rectifiers work!
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Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries? 21 May 2019 13:13 #804313

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weeZee wrote:

loudhvx wrote:

weeZee wrote: I seem to remember that the brown voltage sense wire will only ramp up voltage if connected.
People who would boil batteries on old looms would disconnect it.


The regulator uses the brown sense wire to sense system voltage. When the voltage goes up, the regulator reduces output to the battery, and vice versa. Disconnecting it causes the regulator to stop doing anything and full power is output to the battery. Obviously that will boil the battery.


Grounding the sense wire will boil the battery, I recall that leaving the the sense wire disconnected would result in the RR output being a pre-set level rather than a maximum power. But without a unit to test, or the circuit diagram, I can't verify that.


I think it was already well known grounding the sense line on the regulator would boil the battery. That is, as long as it's not connected to the rest of the brown wire circuit. Grounding the brown wire circuit would obviously blow a fuse.

Grounding the sense line or disconnecting it will have the same result... the regulator not seeing battery voltage. That is what is needed: the sense wire having a clean path to the battery. This has been well-documented on Kzrider for many years.

I was disputing the incorrect assessment that disconnecting the regulator's sense line would stop a battery from boiling. It would make it worse, not better. We are trying to give owners of Kz's good advice. The implied suggestion of disconnecting the sense line will cause damage to the electrical system.
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Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries? 21 May 2019 21:15 #804337

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loudhvx wrote: <snip>

I was disputing the incorrect assessment that disconnecting the regulator's sense line would stop a battery from boiling. It would make it worse, not better. We are trying to give owners of Kz's good advice. The implied suggestion of disconnecting the sense line will cause damage to the electrical system.


I would say that boiling a battery because of a disconnected sense wire is damaging the electrical system, and any other consequences that may occur to a 40 year old wiring harness. Such is the reason I added the diode to make sure that if my relay failed, that it would hold down the output voltage through the original brown wire less the .7 V diode voltage drop.

I think this charge rate voltage will damage something. Electricity is funny, and this would push any marginal components over the edge.
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Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries? 21 May 2019 21:22 #804338

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I suspect a lithium battery would have grenaded well before anything like that happened. :whistle:
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Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries? 22 May 2019 13:08 #804369

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So what are you supposed to do with the now disconnected sense wire? I don't have anything to connect it to at least coming from the R/R.

One could connect a diode to the sense wire, but what does the other end of the diode connect to?

NOTE: I have the red wire from the R/R connected to the B+ voltage thru the starter relay which made sense when looking at the wiring diagram and based on some of the responses.
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Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries? 22 May 2019 13:21 #804370

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Cut it off at the plug or tape it so it won't short out.
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Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries? 22 May 2019 14:32 #804374

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dpivas7 wrote: So what are you supposed to do with the now disconnected sense wire? I don't have anything to connect it to at least coming from the R/R.

One could connect a diode to the sense wire, but what does the other end of the diode connect to?

NOTE: I have the red wire from the R/R connected to the B+ voltage thru the starter relay which made sense when looking at the wiring diagram and based on some of the responses.


When converting to a type of regulator that uses the output wire for voltage sensing, you leave the harness side of the sensing wire unconnected. If you have to pull it out of a connector, make sure to tape it off like Swest said. Make sure it does not make contact with ground since that will blow a fuse.

There is no use for a diode in that configuration. The diode was for a different application, as a safety device.
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Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries? 22 May 2019 16:56 #804386

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loudhvx wrote:

weeZee wrote:

loudhvx wrote:

weeZee wrote: I seem to remember that the brown voltage sense wire will only ramp up voltage if connected.
People who would boil batteries on old looms would disconnect it.


The regulator uses the brown sense wire to sense system voltage. When the voltage goes up, the regulator reduces output to the battery, and vice versa. Disconnecting it causes the regulator to stop doing anything and full power is output to the battery. Obviously that will boil the battery.


Grounding the sense wire will boil the battery, I recall that leaving the the sense wire disconnected would result in the RR output being a pre-set level rather than a maximum power. But without a unit to test, or the circuit diagram, I can't verify that.


I think it was already well known grounding the sense line on the regulator would boil the battery. That is, as long as it's not connected to the rest of the brown wire circuit. Grounding the brown wire circuit would obviously blow a fuse.

Grounding the sense line or disconnecting it will have the same result... the regulator not seeing battery voltage. That is what is needed: the sense wire having a clean path to the battery. This has been well-documented on Kzrider for many years.

I was disputing the incorrect assessment that disconnecting the regulator's sense line would stop a battery from boiling. It would make it worse, not better. We are trying to give owners of Kz's good advice. The implied suggestion of disconnecting the sense line will cause damage to the electrical system.


Why would a disconnected sense wire drive the output voltage up? It's internally connected to the voltage comparator and the output voltage via a resistor divider network. Do you have some circuits or R/R where a sense wire is the only connection to the comparator? Without the sense wire connected to a harness node with a lower voltage, there is nothing to pull down the resistor network. If you have some Shingengen specs or circuit measurements, can you post them here for verification please.

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Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries? 23 May 2019 06:26 #804411

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weeZee wrote:

loudhvx wrote:

weeZee wrote:

loudhvx wrote:

weeZee wrote: I seem to remember that the brown voltage sense wire will only ramp up voltage if connected.
People who would boil batteries on old looms would disconnect it.


The regulator uses the brown sense wire to sense system voltage. When the voltage goes up, the regulator reduces output to the battery, and vice versa. Disconnecting it causes the regulator to stop doing anything and full power is output to the battery. Obviously that will boil the battery.


Grounding the sense wire will boil the battery, I recall that leaving the the sense wire disconnected would result in the RR output being a pre-set level rather than a maximum power. But without a unit to test, or the circuit diagram, I can't verify that.


I think it was already well known grounding the sense line on the regulator would boil the battery. That is, as long as it's not connected to the rest of the brown wire circuit. Grounding the brown wire circuit would obviously blow a fuse.

Grounding the sense line or disconnecting it will have the same result... the regulator not seeing battery voltage. That is what is needed: the sense wire having a clean path to the battery. This has been well-documented on Kzrider for many years.

I was disputing the incorrect assessment that disconnecting the regulator's sense line would stop a battery from boiling. It would make it worse, not better. We are trying to give owners of Kz's good advice. The implied suggestion of disconnecting the sense line will cause damage to the electrical system.


Why would a disconnected sense wire drive the output voltage up? It's internally connected to the voltage comparator and the output voltage via a resistor divider network. Do you have some circuits or R/R where a sense wire is the only connection to the comparator? Without the sense wire connected to a harness node with a lower voltage, there is nothing to pull down the resistor network. If you have some Shingengen specs or circuit measurements, can you post them here for verification please.


It's been pretty well documented on this site and probably any other Kz related site that disconnecting the regulator's sense line causes the output voltage of the regulator/rectifier to default to maximum output. old-kaw very kindly verified that in this very thread.

The internal operation of the regulator need not be known. It's a typical black box problem. We make observations of the black box's output relative to the input we give it.

But on top of that, most of the factory service manuals show a pseudo-circuit of the regulator to make it overly pedantic, and obvious to the technician. The sense line powers the regulator. Remove power to the regulator and the regulator is rendered inert... having no affect on the output. The rectifier is then free to output full power to the battery.

I believe Shindengen also published some similar pseudo-circuits to distinguish SCR regulators from mosfet regulators and shunting regulators from series-pass regulators. The standard Kz regulators for permanent-magnet alternators were all SCR shunt. The schematic old_kaw posted is of that type, and illustrates one possible arrangement that works. You can study the comparator on that schematic to see why it works, but I don't know of any full schematics released by Shindengen.

If you notice, the regulator and rectifier are essentially two different, and basically unrelated circuits acting upon the stator output wires. That is why early Kz regs and recs were separate units. They don't need to talk to each other. So what happens if you remove the regulator? All you have left is an unregulated rectifier putting out full power.
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Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries? 23 May 2019 07:45 #804422

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loudhvx wrote:

weeZee wrote:

loudhvx wrote:

weeZee wrote:

loudhvx wrote:

weeZee wrote: I seem to remember that the brown voltage sense wire will only ramp up voltage if connected.
People who would boil batteries on old looms would disconnect it.


The regulator uses the brown sense wire to sense system voltage. When the voltage goes up, the regulator reduces output to the battery, and vice versa. Disconnecting it causes the regulator to stop doing anything and full power is output to the battery. Obviously that will boil the battery.


Grounding the sense wire will boil the battery, I recall that leaving the the sense wire disconnected would result in the RR output being a pre-set level rather than a maximum power. But without a unit to test, or the circuit diagram, I can't verify that.


I think it was already well known grounding the sense line on the regulator would boil the battery. That is, as long as it's not connected to the rest of the brown wire circuit. Grounding the brown wire circuit would obviously blow a fuse.

Grounding the sense line or disconnecting it will have the same result... the regulator not seeing battery voltage. That is what is needed: the sense wire having a clean path to the battery. This has been well-documented on Kzrider for many years.

I was disputing the incorrect assessment that disconnecting the regulator's sense line would stop a battery from boiling. It would make it worse, not better. We are trying to give owners of Kz's good advice. The implied suggestion of disconnecting the sense line will cause damage to the electrical system.


Why would a disconnected sense wire drive the output voltage up? It's internally connected to the voltage comparator and the output voltage via a resistor divider network. Do you have some circuits or R/R where a sense wire is the only connection to the comparator? Without the sense wire connected to a harness node with a lower voltage, there is nothing to pull down the resistor network. If you have some Shingengen specs or circuit measurements, can you post them here for verification please.


It's been pretty well documented on this site and probably any other Kz related site that disconnecting the regulator's sense line causes the output voltage of the regulator/rectifier to default to maximum output. old-kaw very kindly verified that in this very thread.

The internal operation of the regulator is irrelevant to the external observations. It's a typical black box problem. We make observations of the black box's output relative to the input we give it.

But on top of that, most of the factory service manuals show a pseudo-circuit of the regulator to make it overly pedantic, and obvious to the technician. The sense line powers the regulator. Remove power to the regulator and the regulator is rendered inert... having no affect on the output. The rectifier is then free to output full power to the battery.

I believe Shindengen also published some similar pseudo-circuits to distinguish SCR regulators from mosfet regulators and shunting regulators from series-pass regulators. The standard Kz regulators for permanent-magnet alternators were all SCR shunt. The schematic old_kaw posted is of that type, and illustrates one possible arrangement that works. You can study the comparator on that schematic to see why it works, but I don't know of any full schematics released by Shindengen.

If you notice, the regulator and rectifier are essentially two different, and basically unrelated circuits acting upon the stator output wires. That is why early Kz regs and recs were separate units. They don't need to talk to each other. So what happens if you remove the regulator? All you have left is an unregulated rectifier putting out full power.


You've put forward a theory, but you don't support it with data. An integrated R/R with a sense wire is connected to both the sense wire and the regulator output, there's normally also a zener which doubles as a temperature compensator, a filter network of capacitors paralleled with a resistor in a positive feedback arrangement. This is the contemporary tech used at the time and I attach a Lucas circuit for illustration (though it controls a field coil rather than a SCR bank). If you have better information, or measurements, I respectfully request you to post it here. .
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Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries? 23 May 2019 07:48 #804423

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It's not a theory. It is the report of observations... observations seen in this very thread. And really, it's long established fact.

Your posting is completely irrelevant to permanent-magnet charging systems on Kz's, which is what this thread is about.

If you want to change the subject completely, to excited-field alternators, then your post would be entirely relevant and your original speculation about what would happen when the sense line is removed would be correct. But permanent magnet is a different system regulated in a fundamentally different way.

There are 20 years of posts on Kzrider establishing the operations of both systems. They are very different from each other.
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Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries? 23 May 2019 08:07 #804425

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Sorry, but I'm referring to the sense wires on Shindengen RR units, specifically the circuit used to compensate for voltage drop in the loom.
Now if you have some results of the output battery voltage going over a 14.3v preset when the sense wire is floating, that would be informative.
There is no good engineering design reason to have an independent sense circuit in a regulator.
You're making an unsubstantiated assertion, and I find that it's easier to deal with data than egos.

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Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries? 23 May 2019 08:18 #804426

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CORRECTION
The topic is about Lithium batteries and the need for special regulators.
THAT is what the OP and I'm interested in finding out. From what I've read, those kind of batteries have their own needs and limitations. I for one won't be using one for that reason.
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Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries? 23 May 2019 08:25 #804427

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The Shendgren SH 775 does not have a voltage sense input. It is a 5 wire hookup, the brown wire is eliminated when converting.

This is real world observation from my bike last week. My bike has the original Kawasaki OEM regulator still in use. There is a fluke amp meter on one of the yellow wires, with my HF multimeter connected across the battery showing charge output across the battery. The brown sense wire is disconnected at my relay mod, as can be seen in the pic.


Carry on. LOL
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Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries? 23 May 2019 08:28 #804428

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This is the output with the sense wire disconnected?
Does the RR give 14.3v with the wire connected, or a lower value?

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Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries? 23 May 2019 08:35 #804429

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It is measuring the battery voltage and stator current @ ~4K rpm with the sense wire totally unhooked. Output voltage went to MAX along with stator current.

This is with the sense wire connected directly to B+ through the relay. Normal charge levels for my bike are ~13.7 with a fully charged GOOD AGM battery. .



All of these pics were posted last week.
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Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries? 23 May 2019 08:39 #804430

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OK, and when the sense wire is connected, this voltage is reduced?
The photo posted last week displayed a lower value, with the sense wire connected can you confirm that this value remained below about 14.3 for idle and 4k?

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Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries? 23 May 2019 09:30 #804432

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Since KZR is a mostly public forum, it attracts a wide variety of folks, including some morons. Since they have not yet weighed in on this topic, I feel compelled to stick up for my people on this matter.
To us, it seems there are two basic things here.

1. Back in the day, Kawasaki installed in its motorcycles electrical systems containing what we now call Old Magic. The Old Magic voltage regulators used a brown wire to sense the level of electrical smoke in the rest of the wires. When the level dropped too low, the Old Magic in the box let more smoke from the alternator into the wiring so that all the electrical stuff would work. If the brown wire detected too much smoke, it would let less of it pass from the alternator to the rest of the wires, thus keeping a useable amout in the system at all times.

2. If somebody disconnected, cut, chopped, mutilated or nuked the brown wire, the Old Magic in the regulator box would beleive that the smoke level was almost zero, and open up the valves completely, letting as much smoke as the alternator could make into the system. However, since the system was not actually out of smoke, this new flood of smoke would completely overload the system, causing excess smoke to come flying out of every weak spot it could find.
This is bad.

3. In the last few years, some new magic has come to motorcycle electrics. Somebody started putting some magic called Lithium into batteries. Many experts on the interweb have declared that the Old Magic is not sophisticated enough to talk to the New Magic. So be it. Luckily there is a solution.

4. There is also some New Magic regulators around, like the much beloved Shindegan. (Shindhebahn? Shindoogan? Dang the Irish anyway.) This new magic does not need the brown wire because the New Magic detects smoke levels in different ways. If somebody replaces the Old Magic regulator with a New Magic regulator, the brown wire can be disconnected, cut, chopped, or nuked without fear of losing any smoke.

6. If this trend continues, I fear that it means extinction of the brown wire. It may soon be on the same list as the spotted owl and the snail darter, or is that the owl darter and the spotted snail? I can never remember. Anyhow, I vote that we form the Save The Dang Brown Wire Movement! We could call it the STD Brown for short.

7. What say you all?
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Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries? 23 May 2019 09:40 #804434

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I say stay on the subject or move on. :whistle:
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Do you really need a special rectifier/regulator for Lithium Batteries? 23 May 2019 09:43 #804435

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SWest wrote: I say stay on the subject or move on. :whistle:
Steve


Which subject would you choose?
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