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Charging woes :( 18 Mar 2019 07:50 #800567

  • 650ed
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Trackerkz650sr wrote: Does anyone have the measurements ill need ? Pretty please. I dont have a manual
And need to test my stator and or regulator


If you plan to maintain your bike properly you really need the Kawasaki Service Manual that covers your model. Take a look at the back cover of the manual in the listing below. It shows that the manual includes the 1978 KZ650-D1. Ed

1977 KZ650-C1 Original Owner - Stock (with additional invisible FIAMM horn)

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Charging woes :( 18 Mar 2019 11:34 #800583

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I totally understand the need for a manual. No need to keep beating a dead horse
I was asking someone to kindly show me the CORRECT chart out of theyre manual

I beleive the problem is fixed however i just got time to mess with it

The black wire going to and from the reg was not grounded

Now im charging

My last question is
At about 1/4 throttle ( i have no tach)
My voltage is about 15.3

With my battery resting at a low 12.1x volts
Is this acceptable? Or is that overcharging

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Charging woes :( 18 Mar 2019 13:39 #800584

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You should not go over 13.8 volts in charge voltage.
1981 KZ650-D4, with 1981 z750L engine (Wiensco 810 big bore).

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www.kzrider.com/forum/11-projects/607213...sr-1981-z750l-engine

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Charging woes :( 19 Mar 2019 09:28 #800635

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gordone wrote: You should not go over 13.8 volts in charge voltage.


TOTALLY NOT TRUE!!!

Please do everyone a favor and take a look at the Kawasaki Service Manual before giving advice. Ed
1977 KZ650-C1 Original Owner - Stock (with additional invisible FIAMM horn)

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Charging woes :( 19 Mar 2019 09:46 #800637

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650ed wrote:

gordone wrote: You should not go over 13.8 volts in charge voltage.


TOTALLY NOT TRUE!!! Please do everyone a big favor and take a look at the Kawasaki Service Manual before giving bogus advice based on who knows what! Ed


On a 12v battery I have learn 13.8v is maximum constant voltage for maximise life of a battery. You can go higher for shorter periode, but as a constant charge voltage (battery full charged) 13.8v is max.

What have I learn wrong?

1981 KZ650-D4, with 1981 z750L engine (Wiensco 810 big bore).

Project:
www.kzrider.com/forum/11-projects/607213...sr-1981-z750l-engine
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Charging woes :( 19 Mar 2019 09:53 #800639

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Still wrong. Please take a look at the Kawasaki Service Manual. Below are examples from the 1977 KZ650 Kawasaki Service Manual and the 1981 KZ650 Kawasaki Service Manual. Those two models used different charging systems, so the specs are slightly different, but please notice that in both cases the correct voltage is higher than what you specified. I am quite confident that the folks at Kawasaki who engineered these machines had a thorough understanding of charging systems and batteries. Ed



1977 KZ650-C1 Original Owner - Stock (with additional invisible FIAMM horn)
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Charging woes :( 19 Mar 2019 10:01 #800640

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I don’t see why theory of charing a battery has nothing todo with a brand as Kawasaki. Battery technology is general.

I’m here for learning, why has Kawasaki engineers designed the regulator to give 14,5 /6 = 2,41v per cell or 15/6 = 2,5v per cell?

These is higher then general battery charing theory saying?
1981 KZ650-D4, with 1981 z750L engine (Wiensco 810 big bore).

Project:
www.kzrider.com/forum/11-projects/607213...sr-1981-z750l-engine

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Charging woes :( 19 Mar 2019 10:20 #800641

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I cannot answer your question, but I suspect the engineers at Kawasaki Heavy Industries; the makers of motorcycles, super trains, ships, aerospace and defense equipment, industrial robots, gas turbines, etc. know quite a bit about charging systems. Consequently, rather than trying to invent my own specifications I follow their advice regarding the motorcycles they engineered. Ed
1977 KZ650-C1 Original Owner - Stock (with additional invisible FIAMM horn)

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Charging woes :( 19 Mar 2019 10:51 #800642

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There will be information conflict due to progress in technology and the fact that these bikes are so old now.

When these bikes were designed, mechanical regulators were the norm. They are crude but functional for the battery technology of the time.. Back then, the (lead-acid) batteries were wet-cell and unsealed, so water levels could be maintained by the user. This helped deal with imprecise regulators. If the battery was getting over-charged, the water loss could be replaced by the owner relatively simply. Many/most of us are now using some form of sealed battery which may need a slightly more precise regulation with a voltage level that is likely lower than the permissible range described in the manual. The norm for more modern, fully-electronic regulators was to target the battery voltage to about 14.2 (average voltage). In practice the range, as measured by a digital meter, would be somewhere between 14.2v and 14.5 ish volts. Higher than that, in the summer, might indicate a little maintenance might be needed on the wiring or the regulator might be starting to fail. More modern batteries, especially lithium-based, require even more precise voltage control. As a safety, the permissible limit of the voltage range will probably be lower than that used with lead-acid. This might be where the 13.8v value comes from, but that would be lower than desired for lead-acid batteries. Using 13.8 will cause the battery to re-charge slower.

Also, back then, voltmeters were analog and not very precise. Regulators regulate the *average* voltage. But the "average" can be different for different digital meters that use different sample times. Analog meters show a "continuous" average, but even that will depend on the internal construction and will affect how rapidly the meter will react, so can effect the reading. This can lead to small differences when different meters are used to measure the same battery voltage. This is because the battery voltage is not pure DC. It has a slight pulsing component to it. which is really a small AC component to the overall voltage. Measuring AC or pulsing DC voltage precisely requires "true RMS" meters which are much more expensive than the typical meters the home-mechanic would use. All of this meant that the manual had to be written to take into account the possible variations of volt meters available. I think the manual was written with the expectation that the Kawasaki factory volt meter would be used. I don't think I've ever seen one in person.

As a side note, regarding the manuals out there:
Some manuals have the unloaded AC test voltages flipped. They incorrectly list the 3-phase result as being higher voltage than the 1-phase result. 1-phase should be higher (if I recall, somewhere near 70 or 75 VAC), whereas the 3-phase result should be lower (if I recall, somewhere near 50 or 55 VAC).
The following user(s) said Thank You: 650ed, bluej58, SWest, gordone

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Charging woes :( 19 Mar 2019 11:47 #800644

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650ed wrote: I cannot answer your question, but I suspect the engineers at Kawasaki Heavy Industries; the makers of motorcycles, super trains, ships, aerospace and defense equipment, industrial robots, gas turbines, etc. know quite a bit about charging systems. Consequently, rather than trying to invent my own specifications I follow their advice regarding the motorcycles they engineered. Ed


I understand, so for orginal regulator, must service manual be followed.

I don’t want any conflic here, I was reading around on google and the 13,8 was my conclusion, looks like that is for modern battery as loudhvx indicate.
1981 KZ650-D4, with 1981 z750L engine (Wiensco 810 big bore).

Project:
www.kzrider.com/forum/11-projects/607213...sr-1981-z750l-engine

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Last edit: by gordone.

Charging woes :( 19 Mar 2019 11:52 #800646

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loudhvx wrote: There will be information conflict due to progress in technology and the fact that these bikes are so old now.

When these bikes were designed, mechanical regulators were the norm. They are crude but functional for the battery technology of the time.. Back then, the (lead-acid) batteries were wet-cell and unsealed, so water levels could be maintained by the user. This helped deal with imprecise regulators. If the battery was getting over-charged, the water loss could be replaced by the owner relatively simply. Many/most of us are now using some form of sealed battery which may need a slightly more precise regulation with a voltage level that is likely lower than the permissible range described in the manual. The norm for more modern, fully-electronic regulators was to target the battery voltage to about 14.2 (average voltage). In practice the range, as measured by a digital meter, would be somewhere between 14.2v and 14.5 ish volts. Higher than that, in the summer, might indicate a little maintenance might be needed on the wiring or the regulator might be starting to fail. More modern batteries, especially lithium-based, require even more precise voltage control. As a safety, the permissible limit of the voltage range will probably be lower than that used with lead-acid. This might be where the 13.8v value comes from, but that would be lower than desired for lead-acid batteries. Using 13.8 will cause the battery to re-charge slower.

Also, back then, voltmeters were analog and not very precise. Regulators regulate the *average* voltage. But the "average" can be different for different digital meters that use different sample times. Analog meters show a "continuous" average, but even that will depend on the internal construction and will affect how rapidly the meter will react, so can effect the reading. This can lead to small differences when different meters are used to measure the same battery voltage. This is because the battery voltage is not pure DC. It has a slight pulsing component to it. which is really a small AC component to the overall voltage. Measuring AC or pulsing DC voltage precisely requires "true RMS" meters which are much more expensive than the typical meters the home-mechanic would use. All of this meant that the manual had to be written to take into account the possible variations of volt meters available. I think the manual was written with the expectation that the Kawasaki factory volt meter would be used. I don't think I've ever seen one in person.

As a side note, regarding the manuals out there:
Some manuals have the unloaded AC test voltages flipped. They incorrectly list the 3-phase result as being higher voltage than the 1-phase result. 1-phase should be higher (if I recall, somewhere near 70 or 75 VAC), whereas the 3-phase result should be lower (if I recall, somewhere near 50 or 55 VAC).


Wow!
I needed to read it many times!
Flasback to school :)
I have stored it for later if I forgot something.

Thank you :)
1981 KZ650-D4, with 1981 z750L engine (Wiensco 810 big bore).

Project:
www.kzrider.com/forum/11-projects/607213...sr-1981-z750l-engine

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