Setting timing with points....
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Re: Setting timing with points....
07 Sep 2013 00:19
I've had that drawing saved on my computer for about a year. 
I went thru some of this when I got the bike but its time for a much more thorough pass thru. Might as well do it now while I'm waiting for parts. Is that large white connector in the headlight bucket not part of this drawing?
I got the points housing off the bike and welded up today, need to get that weld shaped back down. Another time I wish I had a rotary table for my mill.
I also found a scraping mark on the backside of the points plate where the advancer had rubbed on it! I will have to be absolutely sure its not rubbing when I get it back on. Seems strange that it would do that.
I went thru some of this when I got the bike but its time for a much more thorough pass thru. Might as well do it now while I'm waiting for parts. Is that large white connector in the headlight bucket not part of this drawing?
I got the points housing off the bike and welded up today, need to get that weld shaped back down. Another time I wish I had a rotary table for my mill.
I also found a scraping mark on the backside of the points plate where the advancer had rubbed on it! I will have to be absolutely sure its not rubbing when I get it back on. Seems strange that it would do that.
Gulf Coast, Texas
1977 KZ1000LTD
1984 VF700F
1977 KZ1000LTD
1984 VF700F
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Re: Setting timing with points....
07 Sep 2013 01:01
I made a big mistake! The 4 volt drop at the coils is ONLY happening when the points plate IS CONNECTED to the coils (black/green wires) and the plate is grounded and the POINTS are CLOSED.
So looks like you ya'll were correct....condensers bad and leaking to ground? New ones are due to be delivered from Z1E on Monday anyways so no problem.
Could this be causing dim lights, slow blinkers....the works? Battery voltage while running is right on what the book says, battery is new (April) and bike keeps it charged. Getting 14 volts @ 5,000 RPM w/high beam on.
I'm really hoping this is the problem.
So looks like you ya'll were correct....condensers bad and leaking to ground? New ones are due to be delivered from Z1E on Monday anyways so no problem.
Could this be causing dim lights, slow blinkers....the works? Battery voltage while running is right on what the book says, battery is new (April) and bike keeps it charged. Getting 14 volts @ 5,000 RPM w/high beam on.
I'm really hoping this is the problem.
Gulf Coast, Texas
1977 KZ1000LTD
1984 VF700F
1977 KZ1000LTD
1984 VF700F
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- Motor Head
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Re: Setting timing with points....
07 Sep 2013 09:26
When you see this much drop in voltage, you have the key on, bike off, and the lights on, measured across the battery compared to across the coils? How is it when you either unplug or pull the fuse to the headlight?
I would think you would blow a fuse with a short, or worse. Most likely a poor connection/ switch in your circuit, not able to handle the load applied.
Start at the battery to do your measurements for voltage drop. Work forwards, starting with the connection from the battery to the Fuse Panel, the Main Fuse, the Ignition Switch, and so on.
I would think you would blow a fuse with a short, or worse. Most likely a poor connection/ switch in your circuit, not able to handle the load applied.
Start at the battery to do your measurements for voltage drop. Work forwards, starting with the connection from the battery to the Fuse Panel, the Main Fuse, the Ignition Switch, and so on.
1982 KZ1000LTD K2 Vance & Hines 4-1 ACCEL COILS Added Vetter fairing & Bags. FOX Racing rear Shocks, Braced Swing-arm, Fork Brace, Progressive Fork Springs RT Gold Emulators, APE Valve Springs, 1166 Big Bore kit, RS34's, GPZ cams.
1980 KZ550LTD C1 Stock SOLD Miss it
1979 MAZDA RX7 in the works, 13B...
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- Old Man Rock
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Re: Setting timing with points....
07 Sep 2013 11:06
The bare bones diagram was intended for the ignition/charging system only... Leave (dis-connect) the head light and all other non ignition accessories out of circuit for now.
With the new ignition components, Dial in the points/dwell to spec.
Get to this point, get her running correctly with minimum/expected voltage drops (< 1.5Vdc) when running. Insure charging up to 13 - 13.5Vdc pending rpm and measure voltage drops as depicted in the lightning bolt diagram Patton provided.
If all good, then add accessory aka headlight one at a time, remeasuring for voltage drops as you add components into the circuit.
With the new ignition components, Dial in the points/dwell to spec.
Get to this point, get her running correctly with minimum/expected voltage drops (< 1.5Vdc) when running. Insure charging up to 13 - 13.5Vdc pending rpm and measure voltage drops as depicted in the lightning bolt diagram Patton provided.
If all good, then add accessory aka headlight one at a time, remeasuring for voltage drops as you add components into the circuit.
1976 KZ900-A4
MTC 1075cc.
Camshafts: Kawi GPZ-1100 .375 lift
Head: P&P via Larry Cavanaugh
ZX636 suspension
MIKUNI, RS-34'S...
Kerker 4-1, 1.5" comp baffle.
Dyna-S E.I.
Earls 10 row Oil Cooler
Acewell 2802 Series Speedo/Tach
Innovate LC1 Wideband 02 AFR meter
Phoenix, Az
MTC 1075cc.
Camshafts: Kawi GPZ-1100 .375 lift
Head: P&P via Larry Cavanaugh
ZX636 suspension
MIKUNI, RS-34'S...
Kerker 4-1, 1.5" comp baffle.
Dyna-S E.I.
Earls 10 row Oil Cooler
Acewell 2802 Series Speedo/Tach
Innovate LC1 Wideband 02 AFR meter
Phoenix, Az
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- loudhvx
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Re: Setting timing with points....
07 Sep 2013 14:35 - 07 Sep 2013 14:48
The original question has come up several times in the past, so I thought I'd post it again in case someone searches this. I didn't read all the responses, so maybe you already figured it out.
EDIT: It appears you figured it out. Nice job.
On an inline-4, if you use resistance checks across the points to determine if they are open or closed, you have to put a piece of paper in the other set of points. If you don't, then you will go from 0 ohms to about 8 to 10 ohms when the points open.
Putting a piece of paper in the other set of points should make the ohms swing from 0 to infinite.
Another option, which produces the same result, is to disconnect the wires on the coil primaries.
Without making the above changes, the resistance only changes to about 8~10 ohms. This is because the two coils are wired to the same power source, they are connected together at their primaries, and they are in parallel. So when you measure the resistance on one open set of points, you are measuring the resistance of the coil in the circuit you are testing, plus the resistance of the coil in the other ignition circuit.
If you use a voltage test, you don't have to make any changes... leave everything connected, and don't need paper on the other points. But this can drain the battery or heat up the coils.
EDIT: It appears you figured it out. Nice job.
On an inline-4, if you use resistance checks across the points to determine if they are open or closed, you have to put a piece of paper in the other set of points. If you don't, then you will go from 0 ohms to about 8 to 10 ohms when the points open.
Putting a piece of paper in the other set of points should make the ohms swing from 0 to infinite.
Another option, which produces the same result, is to disconnect the wires on the coil primaries.
Without making the above changes, the resistance only changes to about 8~10 ohms. This is because the two coils are wired to the same power source, they are connected together at their primaries, and they are in parallel. So when you measure the resistance on one open set of points, you are measuring the resistance of the coil in the circuit you are testing, plus the resistance of the coil in the other ignition circuit.
If you use a voltage test, you don't have to make any changes... leave everything connected, and don't need paper on the other points. But this can drain the battery or heat up the coils.
1981 KZ550 D1 gpz.
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Last edit: 07 Sep 2013 14:48 by loudhvx.
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Re: Setting timing with points....
07 Sep 2013 16:41
I've found some very interesting wiring done by the PO. Imagine that huh. He put one of these aftermarket right side control switches on the bike. Told me he did when I bought it, first thing I asked was if he had the original, he said he threw it away. 
www.z1enterprises.com/ItemDetails.aspx?i...Z900&item=EM99-68892
During voltage drop testing I found a connection getting too hot to touch. The connection at the brown (power) wire from the harness going into the switch is getting hot hot hot! The wiring on this aftermarket switch is different than the original for my bike. So the single brown power wire from the harness splices into two wires going into the new switchblock. This connection, the two to one, is getting very hot.
The problem appears to be the way he connected the new control switch to the bike harness. He cut the original handlebar switchblock wires about 6 inches up from the OEM bullet connections, then cut the ends off the aftermarket switchblock wires, then used some cheesy butt connectors to connect those together. The good thing is that he didn't cut the original harness. Bad thing is he did a poor job on the connections.
When I took the tape off this mess two of the wires fell out of the connectors they are so loose.
I'm going to buy some good butt connectors and use those to connect the switch wires properly. The auto parts store has some that have shrink tubing built on, I believe even some sort of low temp solder is in there. Something in there melts when you put a heat gun on the tubing locking that wire in there good. I've used them on other things, with very good results.
The left side switch is wired in the same way even though it is an OEM Kawasaki switch. I don't think its the OEM switch to my bike, no hazard button and appears to be an external handlebar wiring switch. Not internal like the LTD was.
If anyone has a rebuild-able set of original 1977 KZ1000 LTD switches I'm interested.
www.z1enterprises.com/ItemDetails.aspx?i...Z900&item=EM99-68892
During voltage drop testing I found a connection getting too hot to touch. The connection at the brown (power) wire from the harness going into the switch is getting hot hot hot! The wiring on this aftermarket switch is different than the original for my bike. So the single brown power wire from the harness splices into two wires going into the new switchblock. This connection, the two to one, is getting very hot.
The problem appears to be the way he connected the new control switch to the bike harness. He cut the original handlebar switchblock wires about 6 inches up from the OEM bullet connections, then cut the ends off the aftermarket switchblock wires, then used some cheesy butt connectors to connect those together. The good thing is that he didn't cut the original harness. Bad thing is he did a poor job on the connections.
When I took the tape off this mess two of the wires fell out of the connectors they are so loose.
I'm going to buy some good butt connectors and use those to connect the switch wires properly. The auto parts store has some that have shrink tubing built on, I believe even some sort of low temp solder is in there. Something in there melts when you put a heat gun on the tubing locking that wire in there good. I've used them on other things, with very good results.
The left side switch is wired in the same way even though it is an OEM Kawasaki switch. I don't think its the OEM switch to my bike, no hazard button and appears to be an external handlebar wiring switch. Not internal like the LTD was.
If anyone has a rebuild-able set of original 1977 KZ1000 LTD switches I'm interested.
Gulf Coast, Texas
1977 KZ1000LTD
1984 VF700F
1977 KZ1000LTD
1984 VF700F
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- Motor Head
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Re: Setting timing with points....
07 Sep 2013 18:15
That heat is resistance. Doubt it should have two wires into one at the switch. Follow your wiring diagram to see which wires were connected, and which were contacted inside the OEM switch when turned on. The PO has Fubarded it. Make it right and you will get rid of at least that electrical problem. The T-up stuff won't go to waste either. Clean and lube the advancer properly, lube the wear blocks on the points sets, get it all gaped and timed correctly, and the bike will more than likely run well.
1982 KZ1000LTD K2 Vance & Hines 4-1 ACCEL COILS Added Vetter fairing & Bags. FOX Racing rear Shocks, Braced Swing-arm, Fork Brace, Progressive Fork Springs RT Gold Emulators, APE Valve Springs, 1166 Big Bore kit, RS34's, GPZ cams.
1980 KZ550LTD C1 Stock SOLD Miss it
1979 MAZDA RX7 in the works, 13B...
1980 KZ550LTD C1 Stock SOLD Miss it
1979 MAZDA RX7 in the works, 13B...
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- 74ullc
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Re: Setting timing with points....
07 Sep 2013 19:34
Looks like the PO did manage to get all the wires connected to the correct wires. The reason for the single brown from harness to the two wires into the switch is the differences in the two switches. In the original that brown wire did the job of three wires that the new switch uses.
Original switch.....brown goes into switch and powers headlight switch and engine stop switch. When engine stop switch is put in RUN position it then powers the red/yellow wire to the coils and also the starter button. Then when the started button is pushed it sends the power out thru the black wire, thru the clutch switch.
This new switch needs two power wires going into it. One for the headlight side and one for the engine stop switch side. Then when the stop switch is put into RUN position it powers the red/yellow wire but not the starter button. To get power to the starter button you have to grab it from the red/yellow wire to the coils. There is a black wire and a red/white wire out of the starter button. You have to tie the red/yellow coil wire and the red/white wire together, that way when the engine stop switch is in RUN position you get power to the starter button.
One cool thing this switch will allow is to turn on the running lights without the headlight on too. I guess thats cool anyways. I'm going to wire it up that way.
I was kinda hoping to find that the single to double connector was a mistake and causing all that voltage drop. It's not a mistake but I think it is causing voltage drop thru that bad connection the PO made. There is an unused brown power wire in the harness. It shows it on the wiring diagram and I found it on my bike. I'm going to use that extra power wire to power one of the switch power wires and use the original to power the other. That way at least those will be single to single wire connections. I'll then see if that helps the voltage drop.
Looking at the wiring diagram it seems like that single brown wire powers too many things on this bike.
Original switch.....brown goes into switch and powers headlight switch and engine stop switch. When engine stop switch is put in RUN position it then powers the red/yellow wire to the coils and also the starter button. Then when the started button is pushed it sends the power out thru the black wire, thru the clutch switch.
This new switch needs two power wires going into it. One for the headlight side and one for the engine stop switch side. Then when the stop switch is put into RUN position it powers the red/yellow wire but not the starter button. To get power to the starter button you have to grab it from the red/yellow wire to the coils. There is a black wire and a red/white wire out of the starter button. You have to tie the red/yellow coil wire and the red/white wire together, that way when the engine stop switch is in RUN position you get power to the starter button.
One cool thing this switch will allow is to turn on the running lights without the headlight on too. I guess thats cool anyways. I'm going to wire it up that way.
I was kinda hoping to find that the single to double connector was a mistake and causing all that voltage drop. It's not a mistake but I think it is causing voltage drop thru that bad connection the PO made. There is an unused brown power wire in the harness. It shows it on the wiring diagram and I found it on my bike. I'm going to use that extra power wire to power one of the switch power wires and use the original to power the other. That way at least those will be single to single wire connections. I'll then see if that helps the voltage drop.
Looking at the wiring diagram it seems like that single brown wire powers too many things on this bike.
Gulf Coast, Texas
1977 KZ1000LTD
1984 VF700F
1977 KZ1000LTD
1984 VF700F
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- Motor Head
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Re: Setting timing with points....
07 Sep 2013 19:40
Where does the second brown wire come from in the harness side that you found? It must still be a Switched power source, after the ignition is On I'd say. Make sure it is that way, also that the wire comes from the correct fuse in your fuse panel.
If the PO had both the headlight and Ignition off of 1 brown wire, which would be 14 gauge or maybe smaller. That would be to small to handle the load of each. Once you hook this up so each has its own power feed that should cure or limit that voltage drop.
If the PO had both the headlight and Ignition off of 1 brown wire, which would be 14 gauge or maybe smaller. That would be to small to handle the load of each. Once you hook this up so each has its own power feed that should cure or limit that voltage drop.
1982 KZ1000LTD K2 Vance & Hines 4-1 ACCEL COILS Added Vetter fairing & Bags. FOX Racing rear Shocks, Braced Swing-arm, Fork Brace, Progressive Fork Springs RT Gold Emulators, APE Valve Springs, 1166 Big Bore kit, RS34's, GPZ cams.
1980 KZ550LTD C1 Stock SOLD Miss it
1979 MAZDA RX7 in the works, 13B...
1980 KZ550LTD C1 Stock SOLD Miss it
1979 MAZDA RX7 in the works, 13B...
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- 74ullc
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Re: Setting timing with points....
07 Sep 2013 20:13
The brown wire comes out of the ignition switch. The brown wire is fed from the white wire going into the switch. White wire goes thru the 20AMP fuse and then to the ignition switch. A single brown wire comes out of the ignition switch and then according to the wiring diagram splits off in a few different places to power different things. One of the ends of this brown wire is left empty. Thats the one I saw in the manual and then found on the bike. But yes, they all originate from that single brown wire out of the ignition switch.
It powers the headlight, ignition, turn signal relay, brake light switch....maybe a few other things.
BUT I still have some digging to do. Because, the brown wire in the headlight bucket, right out of the ignition switch, is thicker than the wire that emerges from the harness going to the right side switchblock. I'm guessing the wire going to the switchblock is only 18ga, its thin.
The first foot or so of harness out of the headlight bucket has the original black encasing on it. But then right over the intake cam it turns into electric tape. Its out of this electric tape wrapped part that the brown wire powering my switchblock comes from.
I'm going to unwrap every inch of this wiring and find out exactly whats going on it there. The reward wrapped section looks to have been done much longer ago than the wrap on the switchblock sections. So I think this will be at least two owners ago in there. The PO I bought it from only had it three months.
BTW....do you know what a factory connection where a few wires come together look like? In the wiring diagram it shows these connections as a heavy dot over where the lines cross.
It powers the headlight, ignition, turn signal relay, brake light switch....maybe a few other things.
BUT I still have some digging to do. Because, the brown wire in the headlight bucket, right out of the ignition switch, is thicker than the wire that emerges from the harness going to the right side switchblock. I'm guessing the wire going to the switchblock is only 18ga, its thin.
The first foot or so of harness out of the headlight bucket has the original black encasing on it. But then right over the intake cam it turns into electric tape. Its out of this electric tape wrapped part that the brown wire powering my switchblock comes from.
I'm going to unwrap every inch of this wiring and find out exactly whats going on it there. The reward wrapped section looks to have been done much longer ago than the wrap on the switchblock sections. So I think this will be at least two owners ago in there. The PO I bought it from only had it three months.
BTW....do you know what a factory connection where a few wires come together look like? In the wiring diagram it shows these connections as a heavy dot over where the lines cross.
Gulf Coast, Texas
1977 KZ1000LTD
1984 VF700F
1977 KZ1000LTD
1984 VF700F
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- Motor Head
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Re: Setting timing with points....
07 Sep 2013 20:19 - 07 Sep 2013 20:31
The factory does a "Splice". Usually a connection, like a crimped metal connection non insulated and many times not soldered. These can become corroded, wires can be partially broken on some strands.
I see on your diagram the single brown that you found in the head light bucket. This looks like it would be for an accessory. I also see where the White comes in from the main fuse to the ignition Switch, then connects to the brown for several circuits. It would have worked when the bike was new of course. But after all these years and PO's messing around, it is probably in need of some work. Later they changed the switch and circuits, adding more fuses etc. You may want to consider doing an upgrade to the system, put in an ATO style blade Fuse box, and rewire the bike. Once done you will have way less problems.
If you had such a voltage drop and spent money on the Dyna S, you would surely burn it out with that voltage issue.
I see on your diagram the single brown that you found in the head light bucket. This looks like it would be for an accessory. I also see where the White comes in from the main fuse to the ignition Switch, then connects to the brown for several circuits. It would have worked when the bike was new of course. But after all these years and PO's messing around, it is probably in need of some work. Later they changed the switch and circuits, adding more fuses etc. You may want to consider doing an upgrade to the system, put in an ATO style blade Fuse box, and rewire the bike. Once done you will have way less problems.
If you had such a voltage drop and spent money on the Dyna S, you would surely burn it out with that voltage issue.
1982 KZ1000LTD K2 Vance & Hines 4-1 ACCEL COILS Added Vetter fairing & Bags. FOX Racing rear Shocks, Braced Swing-arm, Fork Brace, Progressive Fork Springs RT Gold Emulators, APE Valve Springs, 1166 Big Bore kit, RS34's, GPZ cams.
1980 KZ550LTD C1 Stock SOLD Miss it
1979 MAZDA RX7 in the works, 13B...
1980 KZ550LTD C1 Stock SOLD Miss it
1979 MAZDA RX7 in the works, 13B...
Last edit: 07 Sep 2013 20:31 by Motor Head.
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