Seeking clarity on charge system test results

I downloaded the PDF from here on KZrider for fault finding on the charging system. Very nice file, followed it easily and ended up stuck on page B. According to my manual for my 79 KZ 650, to test the dynamo, I run bike to get normal operating temp, then I disconnect the two yellow leads from the Regulator/Rectifier(RR) and test the AC voltage between... Which I did, and I got the accepted value of about 75 AC volts.... According to my manual, this is appropriate and thus working ok... so I move on to the "armature" which I think is the same as the "Stator." My book tells me to check the Resistance between the two yellow leads now on the order of 1xOhms. So I do this, and find the resistance to move between .8-1 Ohms, usually staying on .9 Ohms. According to my manual, if this Resistance measurement exceeds .45 Ohms, the Armature is "open" and thus requires replacing. Now where I am stuck is that the KZRider pdf seems to state the opposite naming anything between .5-2 Ohms is good, while being below that is bad...... I want to think the KZ file is correct, but I can't imagine the factory book from Kawasaki is wrong. Additionally, the manual claims this .9 Ohms is a dictation that my armature is bad.... after reading several other posts, can I be this sure.... can I believe the 75 AC volts = good dynamo?


PS- I have a good battery, takes a solid load. Clearly isn't charging since bike stays at 12 V when running. RR was replaced brand new last year.... so I doubt that can be the problem.

Post edited by: b4schroer, at: 2006/06/25 22:54

IMHO, the reading you are getting is close enough that I believe the stator is good, I'd even go with anything less than 2 ohms

What you are actually measuring is the resistance in a long wire, and considering the accuracy of the meter at that low of a resistance I'd say the stator is good.

I have been checking windings in three phase motors recently, and they average 2 to 5 ohms, and it's just a long wire in those also.

My $0.0002 anyway

I just checked the Kawasaki KZ650 manual here and it says .48 ohms, so I guess there is a difference depending on what year the manual was published. My manual is a 77 with supplements up to 1980 models, published in 1991.

I take it that you have already checked/cleaned all connections?

Post edited by: steell, at: 2006/06/25 23:25

Wow... those tolerances are kind of fine that are being tossed around. The wires being measured are OLD and crimped onto the windings on a 900/1000 and I would expect a larger allowable variance. I would say the alternator is good based on the 75VAC measured.

When I look up electrical troubleshooing techniques, I use a British "Motorcycle Electrical Techbook" and it specifies that the impedence check value should be "near zero". I think the very very small impedence values specified by the Kaw service manual are somewhat problematic and "near zero" would be a better way to explain the value expected on a good alternator.

By the way, what problem are you chasing down? If you have problems, the FIRST step is to check your battery. A short can make all the steps in the troubleshooting flow chart you downloaded futile. Get a SMALL hydrometer from any autoparts store. It will look like a small eyedropper with colored balls. You will hook up a small hose to the tip of the dropper part and suck in fluid from each cell. Some balls, all balls or no balls will float. The packaging will tell you how to interpret what is happening as it indicates the health of each cell. It isn't all that unusual for even new batteries to have bad cells. The alternative is to get the battery load tested by a bike shop with the proper tester. These are not common in small shops, like my own, due to the cost.

The problem I am attacking is failure out of the blue for my charging system. Battery takes a good charge, bike runs great for 20 minutes.... then blinkers, headlight, etc die out and stop working.... bike continues to run, but it is clear the battery is the only thing the bike is getting sufficicent power from.

I took the battery to a reputable Honda dealer, they said they put a good load on it and it tested good. I never saw them do this as it was in the back, but I don' figure they are lying or wrong. Battery is a year old, and like I said, takes a good load. Headlights and blinkers are fine for about 20 minutes and then slowly get more and more dim, but in the beggining you would never know. Additionally, I checked voltage across battery terminals while running and only measure 12.2 volts.... when it should be great than 14 volts (And used to be). So whatever the problem is, it has stopped sufficient voltage reaching the battery.

I have checked connections, however, I haven't stripped it down.... in other words, I haven't "cleaned" all the connectors or checked for frays, etc underneath my harnessing. I mean, that is so unlikely that the wires wrapped in tape and rubber linings have all of a sudden caused this issue. I just don't believe it, I checked all wires that are exposed, but it seems to me that it would be a waste of time and destructive to take apart a well protected series of wires.... I am open to criticism about that opinion though, and provided you all think that may be a problem, I'll check them out.

So you guys think the stator is good since .9 Ohms is more or less close to .45 Ohms ~ 0 ohms. I don't think this can really be attributed to old wires, but I might be wrong. The leads are only about 6 inches long, and in my opinion in great shape, copper is bright still, no frays or corrosion of any sort. I agree with Wired George that the Alt. is good still. I am not convinced the stator is, but what next? Connections are all solid, though I can go through them again and really "clean" them.... again, I am skeptical as to that being the problem. I appreciate the battery thought, but I don't see anything more I should do there unless the Honda Dealer made a mistake.... I could go get it rechecked.... It would make my day if the battery was at fault!


Where do I go next?


Also, Steell, your Kaw manual matches mine.... .48 ohms is the spec I'm given in mine... and RE: the accuracy of the ohmmeter, I would say it is not worse than +- .1 ohms, but I may be wrong... and in that event, you could be hitting the nail right on the head since the error would allow for a measure of .9 to be within the accepted .45.

I would not rule out the reg/rec just because it is ~1 year old, I learned a long time ago not to assume anything

I agree with Wired George that the Alt. is good still. I am not convinced the stator is

The alternator consists of two parts, a rotor with magnets glued on the inside and the stator, and it's kinda rare for the magnets to go bad (not impossible just rare).

Check the reg/rec, that will either verify that it is good, or identify it as the problem.

charging systems are 4 sections
making the electricity-stator/rotor
controling the current- reg/rct
storing the charge - battery
wires and connectors
sometimes one part or another will check different when either hot or cold so check at both temps. go slow and check everything.

I'm a little overwhelmed by all the different thoughts... as you all are with my descriptions, however if I can summarize correctly between all the different comments, I get this.....


It so far sounds like the stator(armature) is PROBABLY ok, the dynamo(alternator) seems to be fine, thus I should suspect my new Regulator/Rectifier since I am still not getting above 12.2 V at the battery.

I am also assuming that my battery is ok since load testing it, and am cornering Murphy away from the battery to either (MOST PROBABLY, but not certainly) my wires and connectors OR the RR. Additionally, I can check the RR in the methods described by the manual and .pdf off of KZrider, and assume that my tests on the Stator and Dynamo have thus far been completed and done correctly with positive results.....


I have one final comment for the electronic Gurus....
After having my bike almost stolen last year, I installed a "secret" kill switch(now I will know where to start looking for the next thief) which is just a on/off kill switch on the lead from the battery to the ignition/RR. All connections are good, etc, etc.... could this switch create a problem besides an extra connection.... can it inhibit the RR from working proerly by creating more impedance or something???

All connections are good, etc, etc.... could this switch create a problem besides an extra connection.... can it inhibit the RR from working proerly by creating more impedance or something???

Not in any way that I'm aware of.
That would be the output from the reg/rec.

Just in case there is a bad connection at the switch, disconnect the battery and measure the resistance from the connection that goes to the battery and the connection on the opposite side of the switch that goes to the reg/rec. You want to ceck and make sure there is no resistance between the reg/rec and the battery.

With the switch in the on position of course

Post edited by: steell, at: 2006/06/26 14:57

Actually, everyone who has given advice or thoughts has been pretty much on the same page... only different styles or ways of approaching an issue. I didn't understand the fundemental problem. OK... battery tested good. The load test was as good as you can do. The Honda shop is probably fine for doing this test as only larger dealerships will have a tester. Next, the bike is making AC OK... that leaves TWO of the four legs that Trippivot spoke about... connectors and reg/rec. Since the voltage < 14VDC, I would suspect the connectors and approach it from that direction first although the regulator/rectifier isn't hard to troubleshoot I think. I believe your assessment regarding the futility of unwrapping wires from their cover or insulation is correct. The issue will be in either dirty or faulty connections. Most logical areas should be disconnected, cleaned with contact cleaner and greased with dielectic grease. Also, follow your main ground to the engine or frame and ensure that the location is clean and good contact is made and that the connector is tightly fastened. Then start disconnecting stuff... Just to confirm, you once got 14VDC when revving the engine to 3500 rpm? You WILL NOT get 14VDC at idle... just under 13VDC would be closer. The battery must be charging over 12VDC to maintain a positive potential which ensures the charging continues. OK... if you don't have 14VDC plus at 3500 rpm, then start by disconnecting the plug where the wires from the alternator plug into the regulator rectifier; be that a panel or just a connector. Clean, grease and retighten. Do the same for the connector coming off the reg/rec. There is a WHITE wire coming off the reg/rec; it may go into a single or double connector. Take that apart and clean/grease. If you have a secure ground and clean and grease w/dielectric grease these connectors, as well as the black or black/yellow wire connector coming off your reg/rec, that should take care of any connection issue. I am sure if other folks think about which connectors to look at, others might be added but that's all I can think of. To test your reg/rec, disconnect your battery. Then use a multimeter set on Ohms x10 or x100 and measure resistance between the yellow wires and the white/red wire... keep track of the values. Now swap your probes and repeat the exercise. There should be about 10 times the amount of resistance in one direction as the other. Do the same between the yellow wires and the black. The results here should be the same... about 10 times greater resistance in one direction than the other.
---IF any two leads show the same resistance in both direcitons, the reg/rec is faulty.

b4schroer wrote:

The problem I am attacking is failure out of the blue for my charging system. Battery takes a good charge, bike runs great for 20 minutes.... then blinkers, headlight, etc die out and stop working.... bike continues to run, but it is clear the battery is the only thing the bike is getting sufficicent power from.

What is the voltage on the battery posts NOT THE CONNECTORS
On the fully charged battery before you crank her up _____?
After she starts running ______? When reved up to 3500 ______?
Between the negative battery post and the engine case revved to 3500_____? If you shut her down after running about five minutes ______?
After the lights have died? Running _______? Revved up to 3500 ____? After you shut her down ______?

I took the battery to a reputable Honda dealer, they said they put a good load on it and it tested good. I never saw them do this as it was in the back, but I don' figure they are lying or wrong. Battery is a year old, and like I said, takes a good load. Headlights and blinkers are fine for about 20 minutes and then slowly get more and more dim, but in the beggining you would never know. Additionally, I checked voltage across battery terminals while running and only measure 12.2 volts.... when it should be great than 14 volts (And used to be). So whatever the problem is, it has stopped sufficient voltage reaching the battery.

I have checked connections, however, I haven't stripped it down.... in other words, I haven't "cleaned" all the connectors or checked for frays, etc underneath my harnessing. I mean, that is so unlikely that the wires wrapped in tape and rubber linings have all of a sudden caused this issue. I just don't believe it, I checked all wires that are exposed, but it seems to me that it would be a waste of time and destructive to take apart a well protected series of wires.... I am open to criticism about that opinion though, and provided you all think that may be a problem, I'll check them out.

So you guys think the stator is good since .9 Ohms is more or less close to .45 Ohms ~ 0 ohms.

Find zero on your meter by connecting the leads together. Write it down. CHeck the stator. Write it down. Find zero again on your meter. Write it down. The two zeros may not be the number zero but should be the same. Subtract this number from the stator reading to get a more accurate value.

I don't think this can really be attributed to old wires, but I might be wrong. The leads are only about 6 inches long, and in my opinion in great shape, copper is bright still, no frays or corrosion of any sort. I agree with Wired George that the Alt. is good still. I am not convinced the stator is, but what next? Connections are all solid, though I can go through them again and really "clean" them.... again, I am skeptical as to that being the problem. I appreciate the battery thought, but I don't see anything more I should do there unless the Honda Dealer made a mistake.... I could go get it rechecked.... It would make my day if the battery was at fault!


Where do I go next?

Tell us the measurements

Also, Steell, your Kaw manual matches mine.... .48 ohms is the spec I'm given in mine... and RE: the accuracy of the ohmmeter, I would say it is not worse than +- .1 ohms, but I may be wrong... and in that event, you could be hitting the nail right on the head since the error would allow for a measure of .9 to be within the accepted .45.

It is very difficult to accurately measure a low resistance with a hand held meter. It can't put enough current through the circuit to give a voltage drop that is not near the noise limit of the A/D converter. I assume you are using a digital meter with three and one half digits. If you are using a $10 digital meter, all bets are off...

-Duck

Post edited by: Duck, at: 2006/06/26 21:25

Post edited by: Duck, at: 2006/06/26 21:26

The other possibility is you are consuming more power than the system is meant to be producing. For example: adding a high output headlight to your bike can overload the charging system - most of these bikes came with only 55 or 60w headlights - putting a brighter headlight in the bike can be enough to cause the battery to run down. As already mentioned, bad connections can cause a voltage drop, as can components that're not working properly (like a brake light switch jammed on permanently).

show offs!you guys all have slide rules built into your glasses dont ya?:S :whistle: :woohoo: :silly: