Ignition sensor, hall, vr

ANyone know what sort of sensor the later kz ignition uses?

Thanks

How late?
Depends on model, but...
From about 79 to 81 is reluctor with mechanical advancer.
From about 81/82 to maybe 83/84/85 it is reluctor with electronic advance.
I have not heard of a KZ using Hall, but I'm not sure of what was used after the mid 1980's. I think the police bikes still used the mechanical advancer ignitions through the 1990's.

Hall is less reliable than reluctor, but much cheaper.

I think commonly the Hall senor would be 3 wire, while the reluctor 2. Now they do have some new technology that has changed this, but for the time period your dealing with should be pretty straight.

2 wire, guess its variable reluctor.

The Factory Manual describes the electronic ignition as having a Darlington power transistor in the IC igniter and pick up coils that create a magnetic field which is broken by the passage of the iron rotor projection.

Here is a link to some good reading on the subject:
www.import-car.com/Article/71659/ignitio...sistive_sensors.aspx

I posted this years ago, but I guess it must not come up on searches.

1981 KZ550D1 (Gpz) ignition notes 8/14/05, updated 8/10:

Coils:
Primary DC resistance: Factory specs are 1.8 to 2.8 ohms. Actual measurements tend to be 2.4 to 2.7 ohms.
Primary inductance: 6.33 mH (Measured)

Module:
Kawasaki part number: 2119-1040
Fuji built
Fuji label part number: 2119-1020

Pickups:
DC resistance: 450 to 460 ohms.
inductance: 350 mH
Magnets: Both magnets are identical. If the polarity is in question, it can be checked. Hold the magnets together. Stripe-to-stripe repel. Blank-to-stripe attracts. That means both white stripes are the same pole. When mounted to the plate, the same pole on both magnets faces the timing plate. If one magnet is flipped, the magnetism will be very weak. If both are flipped, the signal will get inverted. The stripe does not necessarily tell which face is north, so is not the indicator to use to determine which way to install the magnets. The south pole must face away from the engine. The north pole faces toward the engine. A known magnet can be used to determine the polarity of the magnets. Or an electromagnet can be used.

Another test is to put the assembly together such that both stripes face the engine or both stripes face away from the engine. If they are correct, the voltage on the black wire (using blue as ground) will be positive as an iron object approaches the pickup. The voltage will be negative if the magnets are backwards, so they should be flipped. Same for the yellow wire. It should be positive (using red as ground) as an iron object approaches the pickup. Negative when it moves away.

Side note on reluctance: Here, the pickup already has a constant magnetic field on it. So as the iron rotor approaches it, the B field changes and the signal is generated. If the rotor is a magnet, the polarity of the constant field matters. For example, on the KZ pickup, the center core of the pickup is a south pole. If a north magnet rotor approaches it, a signal will be generated larger than if the rotor was iron and as the north pole moves away, the signal will invert and be large. But if a south magnet approaches, there is a conflict. Because the magnet is ferrous, the field from the pickup's magnet increases, but since the approaching rotor is a south magnet, the field decreases. Whichever magnetic field is more powerful will determine the final polarity of the signal, but the signal will be weaker than if the rotor was plain iron. Same for when the rotor moves away.

When everything is correct, the 1-4 pickup coil produces a positive signal on the black wire (blue as ground) as the rotor tip approaches the pickup. It produces a negative signal as the rotor tip moves away from the pickup.
When everything is correct, the 2-3 pickup coil produces a positive signal on the yellow wire (red as ground) as the rotor tip approaches the pickup. It produces a negative signal as the rotor tip moves away from the pickup.

The rear pickup is the black/blue pickup. Black is (+), blue is (-). This pickup controls the right hand side ignition coil which is the 1-4 coil and is fired by a black wire.
The front pickup is the yellow/red pickup. Yellow is (+), red is (-). This pickup controls the left hand side ignition coil which is the 2-3 coil and is fired by a green wire.


Rotor:
It is an iron slug with an increasing-radius ramp up to a pronounced point with a decreasing-radius ramp after the point.
The increasing ramp takes about 120 deg and the decreasing ramp takes 240 deg. This iron slug is just pressed on. Flipping it over (while keeping the point at the same location) can theoretically double the dwell to 240 deg, but the signal becomes less clear and thus more unstable and false triggers result. The long-ramp has dips and bumps that cause the false signals. Also, for some reason, the dwell, in this condition, only ranges from 80 deg to a maximum of 180 ~ 220 deg instead of the theoretical 240 deg regardless of the how high the rpm is. Perhaps 10,000 rpm does not produce enough amplitude with such a gradual ramp.

Performance:
Dwell at idle: 100 deg (crankshaft)
Dwell increases to 120 deg (crankshaft) as rpm increases
With about a 1mm gap from rotor tip to pickup, the peak POSITIVE (not peak to peak) output spike is about:
.2v at 120 rpm (2Hz)
.3v at 180 rpm (3Hz)
7v at 6000 rpm (47Hz)
(Battery powered start is somewhere around 300 rpm (5hz).)
These measuments represent positive signal peak relative to ground (ie, when the negative pickup wire is grounded), NOT peak to peak. The negative spike, as measured on the positive pickup wire (with negative pickup wire grounded), has about 50% of the positive peak's amplitude.
These measurements are accurate even when hooked up to an ignitor. Any ignitor will have to have very high input impedance to prevent signal delay, thus the pickup's output voltage, under load, will remain very similar to an un-loaded pickup's output voltage.

A diagram of the pickup's output voltage is visible in the file called "GPZreluctorWave.GIF".

Due to the nature of inductive pickups, there is a small delay that increases with rpm. This delay ranges from 0 deg to about 3 deg (crankshaft) at 10,000 rpm. The effect will be seen as about a 2 to 3 degree retard on the spark at high rpm. It's not very noticeable til around 8000 or 9000 rpm. This delay appears with the stock ignitor as well as other ignitor modules that have been constructed and substituted.

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The following ignitor-usage data was compiled by "luvmykaw" on KZrider.com.

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The ignitor for a 1982 H3 750 LTD, part number 21119-1040 is a direct swap with:

KZ550-A2-81 Standard
KZ550-A3-82 Standard
KZ550-A4-83 Standard
KZ550-C1-80 LTD
KZ550-C2-81 LTD
KZ550-C3-82 LTD
KZ550-C4-83 LTD
KZ550-D1-81 Gpz
KZ550-F1-83 SPECTRE
KZ550-M1-83 SHAFT

KZ650-H1-81 CSR
KZ650-H2-82 CSR

KZ750-E1-80
KZ750-E2-81
KZ750-H1-80 LTD
KZ750-H2-81 LTD
KZ750-E3-82
KZ750-H3-82 LTD

KZ1000-G1-80

Igniter part number 21119-1050 will only cross between these bikes:
KZ650-H3-83 CSR
KZ750-H4-83
KZ750-L3-83
KZ750-R1-82 GPZ

All of the early inductive ign. as well as point ign. had their weak points. It's mostly agreed that point ing. were not much good at high RPM's, ie., point bounce, there is no damping of spring harmonics. The Darlington style have a small retard at high RPM, but also increase the voltage as the RPM's increase and also increasing the dell. For the end user there is one problem with this ign, system. The igniter must have 12vt. to function, create a reliable spark. At idle our stock voltage regulators will not raise the line voltage above the available battery voltage enough to compensate for a weak battery. This also makes the mandated "lights on" add to the voltage problem of a weak battery. There is some relief for this weak battery/line voltage problem. Honda has used a six wire regulator that has a wire that senses the line voltage and allows more voltage pass though to have 12vts. at idle. Our Kawasaki regulators are 5 wire on the Kz's most of us have. The Honda sixth wire also curbs the very high voltage at very high RPM's. This what I understand ATM.

Actually, the KZ regulators, as any voltage regulator, allows for maximum alternator output whenever the sensed voltage is below the regulation limit (usually around 14 to 14.5v). The fact that the voltage is lower at idle is because the alternator does not put out enough at idle. This is because permanent magnet alternators must not be made too strong or risk burning out regulators, and also to prevent robbing too much horsepower from the crank at higehr RPMs. Excess power is burned away as heat, and this is robbed from the cankshaft power.

The field-coil alternators of the 77 KZ650, and most 400 twins and some 750 twins, use a more efficient alternator. It only robs the crankshaft of the amount of power it needs. This saves horsepower, allows for a more powerful alternator, and this allows for a higher voltage at idle. The problem is that most used mechanical regulators which are problematic and the system was more complex and cost more overall.

At idle, the ignition doesn't need a lot of voltage since the dwell is so much longer at idle. This allows for the primary current to saturate. This does not happen at higher RPMs, so higher voltage is needed to get the primary current up faster. However, since the dwell is so short, the average power consumption by the ignition actually drops as the RPMs get higher. (This is on factory or cheaper aftermarket igitions. Dwell control ignitions like the Dyna 2000 etc don't exhibit this behavior.) It sounds like a contradiction to have more volatge at higher RPMs, but use less power, but higher voltage at higher RPMs will not offset the power reduction due to dwell reduction. This is why dwell angle enhancing ignitions like the HEI is desirable. Simple mods can be done to use an HEI igniter with the factory pickups (on mechanical advance bikes) to get extended dwell.

So how does the Dyna S differ from the early 80's non points ignition?

notaduc wrote:

So how does the Dyna S differ from the early 80's non points ignition?

The Dyna S has a fixed dwell, which makes it waste a lot of power at idle. Also, if the ignition is on, the coils are burning away power even when the motor is not turning. The Dyna S requires higher resistance coils which are not entirely compatible with the factory electronic ignition, so swapping between systems is costly.

The factory ignition uses less power when running, and almost none when the motor is not turning, even when the ignition is turned on.

Both use the same mechanical advancer for timing.

The Dyna S is a good replacement for points, but in my opinion, the factory ignition is superior. Also, you can make a replacement igniter for the factory ignition for less than $50.

Do you mean the HEI ignitor setup?

Can I use the stock ignitor with the late ignition?