electrical gurus (Lou?) got a challenge

loudhvx wrote:

Ok, I know this is redundant,dont worry about that i spent hrs of research and asking questions to experts to get where i am, i had to be told stuff over again too but I just need to be sure we're on the same page (and you've probably told me this one way or another three times already, I just don't want anything blowing up in the crotch area, if you know what I mean )
believe me, thats the last thing i want to happen too!!

We are designing the stage 2 wiring only. yes
Stage 2 will only be in effect while stage 1 is already spraying. (Never stage 2 by itself.)yes
Stage 1 and stage 2 each have their own solenoid and plumbing.yes just like the pics i posted, thats a dual stage setup on a zx12r not a zrx
You are going to have stage 1 up and running first, before installing stage 2.actually i'll probably put them both on at the same time, but only use stage 1 untill im used to it/ have it perfectly tuned with the power commander and wideband O2 sensor, then ill fine tune the resistance with the wideband O2 sensor in the exhaust for stage 2
Stage 2 will come on via starter button, but you may not want it to stay on the entire time of WOT, so letting off the button will shut it down. This means any backfiring, hiccups, etc needs to be eliminated. This means a possible (or probable) need for timing the solenoid/resistor-circuit so the mixture won't go too far off in either direction (lean/rich) when the button is pushed/released. yes
Anytime the throttle is closed slightly, all spraying will stop.yes, and the resistance of the coolant temp circuit has to go back to normal IF stage 2 was on(possibly on a timer)
Stage 2 will be temperature sensitive based on coolant sensor.yes
Stage 1 is temperature sensitive based on the airbox temp sensor.yes

Is that right so far? perfecto

I still have a few questions then.
First, I think it's possible to use one WOT-microswitch to do all of this, without complicating anything. Should we just plan on one microswitch, then? if it can be built with just one easily then sure. but they are only $13 each
Also, this is a stage 1 question, but how will the ECU know how much fuel to give for the stage 1 spray? If it's basing it on the temperature of the airbox, won't it only give enough fuel to account for cold air? That won't be enough fuel to account for the extra oxygen in the cold N2O, will it? Is the airbox temp-sensor going to get hacked as well? no it wont be hacked, for some reason the ecu puts in enough fuel for the temp drop of the nitrous safley up to around 40hp worth of nitrous. some guys say 50hp. im not sure exactly how it works, but it does and is currently working on literally thousands of fuel injected bikes with an air box temp sensor. this is all brands of dry nitrous setups. they spray in nitrous and it works. check dynotune, check nx, check muzzys, check cold fusion, they are all basically the same when you are adding a dry kit.(you just need to get "fancy" if you want more power with the dry kit)
Are the fuel injectors capable of handling this extra fuel flow? Does the ECU have a limit to the pulse-width it gives to the injector? If so, won't it be getting exceeded? Was the system designed, from the factory, knowing N2O might be used? the fuel injectors are capable of running about 280 hp(total at the wheel) im told with stock fuel pressure. my fuel pump may be the limiting factor, but muzzy sells one specifically for this type of application. it bumps fuel pressure(need to remap for new pressure, but i can get a map from a guy with the same setup only he doesnt have stage 2) a bit and is capable of flowing a lot more gas. im not sure if kawi planned on nitrous for their bikes, but they had to know it would be getting the upgrades like every other bike out there. might as well make it easier for the customers to hop up their brand??

Also, is this same stage1/stage2 setup working on that ZRX in the photos, or is that something different (two solenoids and relays)?
the zx12r in my pics doesnt have the tank cover on, it looks kinda funny if you havent taken one off before. the black box and fuses are stock pieces. ill try to find a pic of that area without nitrous stuff


Sorry so many questions, no rush, obviously. bring them on, no matter how small I want you to know this stuff too if you are helping design it. my life could be hanging in the balance :woohoo: :lol:

Sorry, a friend of mine just bought a ZRX, and it just stuck in my head :blink:

Alright then...

I guess I'd like to know a little bit about the coolant temp-sensor. Is it a single-wire apparatus, or is it more complicated? It has to be more than a switched resistor, I assume.

use a potentiometer. volume control sold at radio shack for about 2$. this will allow you to change the resistance without breaking the connection ergo you wont trip the computer.

i wouldnt mind having a zrx either.....
ok, the coolant temp sensor, i believe it just changes the resistance of the circuit when the temp changes, i will look it up to make sure, i have just been told to add resistance to the circuit, not how:P I asked for pics of the mod on the 12 forum today, we;ll see what happenes, i know a few guys did it
jaysuniquekz750: I will be using a potentiometer to fine tune resistance for a certain amount of nitrous, but it has to be switched on or off with my nitrous automatically. i cant be reaching and turning a knob at the race track while i push the button. especially if im not sure ill be using it. both hands HAVE to be on the bars when you have around 250 hp at the wheel:woohoo: I might be using the second stage a couple times in a race, ie to catch up and pass (then revert to stage 1 only) and the other guy pulls ahead again, hit stage 2 again. it needs to be automatic with the button, and not on when i dont need it. thx for the tip on what to get though, i will need one. any idea how much resistance can be added with a volume knob?

Does the coolant-temp sensor only have one wire to it?

I wonder, does the resistance need to be changed for hotter or colder days? If not, then it would be more reliable to replace the potentiomer with a fixed resistor. Standard pots don't like harsh environments very much.

Post edited by: loudhvx, at: 2007/05/19 00:39

I believe this is what we are dealing with. 3 wires coming out of it not 1. the added resistance wont need to be changed for hotter or colder days since its added to the stock resistance which goes up and down with temp i do believe. once i have it tuned i could replace the potentiomer with a fixed resistor if i kept the second stage the same. however i was thinking of having it setup for 2 power options for the second stage. its a simple jet swap in the nitrous line. for example i could have a 20 or a 35 shot. it would be nice to keep the potentiomer and have 2 marks on it to turn the dial to. one setting for the small shot, and one for the bigger shot. that or i could have 2 fixed resistors to swap one for the other when i change jets.
i would feel safer starting to tune the second stage if it was a smaller shot just incase it runs a bit lean. once its figured out i would move up to the bigger jet, add a bunch more resistance, then back it down till i got a good air fuel ratio

I found another post by the guy that was running 251hp
its actually an older post when he was "just" using an 80 shot instead of the 90

I actualy have an 05 12R and its supporting 240 whp. I tryed an adjustable resistor inline with the water temp sensor and it ran under 10:1 a/f on our dyno at full rpm with 240whp run, if i didnt have stock internals I would try another 30 - 50hp.I have a single stage 80hp dry

the thread was about the capability of the stock B model fuel pump. he didnt leave it tuned under a 10:1 air fuel ratio, he was just making the point that it could flow more than he needed it to. I have an A model, and ill most likely need an aftermarket pump like the muzzy pump or an equivalant. I got this info from another guy on the 12 forum that is currently building a big bore 12 for LSR

If you're going to go that route.... DONT get the Muzzy fuel pump kit!!!

Save yourself hundreds of $$ and buy the same exact fuel pump (walbro gss307) and installation kit for like $90 shipped!

But I wouldn't go with the gss307 though.... not unless I was going with a BIG TURBO. The gss242 can support well over 300-350rwhp and is virtually the same size as the gss307.

Post edited by: 77KZ650, at: 2007/05/19 13:11

ok heres some info i recieved

470 ohm 1/4 watt. Here is the pic of the sensor, cut the orange wire and solder the resistor in it will give you about 8% fuel everywhere

from an email convo between 2 guys

Can I run stage 2 with just a resistor and no power commander??? Also what other mods will I need to make for second stage???? And what will be max jet size per stage??? Thanxxx

Yes you can run two stages with the resistor mod I would get the upgraded fuel pump and change to one range colder plug that can put you up to 230 hp. if you add c-16 you can go up to 250 hp. First stage .028 jet second stage.028 jet will give you 218-223 hp, .034 second will get you 224-227 hp, .042 second will get you at 244-247 hp wait for about 8000 rpm before activating second stage. If you plan to use a lot of nitrous you may want to consider changing to a nitrous piston, definitely if you are going to use it for top speed runs

Since i have a power commander that can back off timing i think ill be fine with pump gas since the other guy was running a 90 shot with no timing taken out and a slightly higher octane of gas "a splash of 110 in the tank of pump gas"

what do you think Lou?

So you are saying 470 ohm is the target resistance, but you want it adjustable. Then a 1K linear pot is what you want.

In this design, the relay turns on instantly and the potentiometer jumps into the circuit almost immediately when the start button is held in while the throttle is at WOT. When the start button is released, or the throttle switch is opened, the solenoid turns off almost immediately, and C1 slightly delays the removal of the potentiometer from the circuit.

you are a genius:)
thx man!

77KZ650 wrote:

you are a genius:)
thx man!

Well, I just hope it doesn't blow up.

This diagram shows the polarity on the diodes.

great stuff. i hope i dont pop it too:woohoo: :laugh: I think 75 hp total of nitrous will work great in the 1/4, and for LSR Ill drop it to 55-60 hp so its safe. I dont feel like getting nitrous pistons to max it out in the mile because i plan on getting turbo pistons (hopefully)next yr:evil: :whistle:
I sent the diagram to the guy that was running the 90 shot and it will probly be awhile before i hear back, but i know i will eventually, hes the one that im buying my custom nitrous kit from later on and im not buying till he OKs the electronics as compatible with the ecu:P he misplaced his diagram and was too busy to find it last i was talking to him as his shop was super busy and he was trying to get his turbo setup finished