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TOPIC: Ignition Timing won't synch with contact breaker plate

Ignition Timing won't synch with contact breaker plate 05 Feb 2019 12:22 #798233

  • newkzrider18
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Hi all,

I'm adjusting my timing and following the instructions on page 19 of the manual. It states if the timing is incorrect (which it was as determined previously) to move the crankshaft to the timing mark for the 'F' mark , then adjust the contact breaker mounting plate so the contacts are 'just at the point of opening' or watching an ohmmeter needle flicker.

In the contact breaker mounting plates full range of motion, the points are always opening too early, so before the F timing mark, i.e., it doesn't matter where I put the contact breaker plate the points always open early. (plate all the way to the right, all the way to the left, in the middle, points open early!)

Could there be another reason for this?
Thanks!
I have attached the page of the manual I am using.
1980 KZ 440 LTD Model A

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Ignition Timing won't synch with contact breaker plate 05 Feb 2019 12:41 #798234

  • Warren3200gt
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The timing plate and the poits back plate are all the adjustment range there is in the set up. If you cant get them to open at the correct mark adjusted fully in either direction there a few things you could do. Firstly are 100% you have the correct points for the bike? Things you could do if you have tried everything else, either file the points heel down which would mean they open later or you could file the slots longer in the backing plate giving more adjustment.
75 z1b, 77 z650 b1, 77 z650 b1 period custom, 77 z1000 a1, 82 z1100 elr, 89 zxr750h1

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Last edit: by Warren3200gt.

Ignition Timing won't synch with contact breaker plate 05 Feb 2019 12:43 #798235

  • Scirocco
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First you have to set the gap of the points to 0,3 - 0,4 mm clearence at maximum opening.

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Ignition Timing won't synch with contact breaker plate 05 Feb 2019 13:27 #798236

  • 650ed
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It is important to understand this: setting the points is comprised of two separate components, and BOTH of these components MUST be set properly if the engine is to run well:

--- The GAP – this is the distance the points spread apart when fully open. This is set by adjusting the points. The GAP is the element that determines the DWELL. In essence, the DWELL is the number of degrees of points cam rotation that the points are closed and this controls the amount of time the coils receive a charge before firing the spark plugs. The gap MUST be set before you set the timing.

--- The TIMING of the initial opening of the points (the point at which the continuity across the points breaks) controls the precise instant that the coils receive the signal to fire the spark plugs. This is set by turning the backplate AFTER the gap is set. Ed
1977 KZ650-C1 Original Owner - Stock (with additional invisible FIAMM horn)

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Last edit: by 650ed.

Ignition Timing won't synch with contact breaker plate 05 Feb 2019 14:09 #798240

  • z1kzonly
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Could it be that all too commonn 180 degree off lobe? Did you take the lobe off of the advancer?
With that tiny speck of a mark at around 4:00 o'clock position?
Did not read too much in to this?
Livin in "CheektaVegas, NY
Still have a Kaw! 76 KZ900 Pro-Street.
Went thru 25 of these in 40 yrs.

And The Old Girl, Harley 75 FLH Electra Glide,
Old faithful! Points ign. Bendix Orig. carb.
Starts everytime!

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Ignition Timing won't synch with contact breaker plate 07 Feb 2019 13:06 #798330

  • newkzrider18
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Thank you all for the replies.

Yes, in following the manual I have already set the point gap; it was to spec as per the manual and then I continued on to the static timing. No I hadn't taken off the timing advancer at the time.
Also after I move the plate, I make sure that the it is tight on before doing the static test.

I did take it off when checking the slack in my primary chain and when I reinstalled I made sure that the counter breaker fit back into the contact breaker base pin on the starter plate (manual pg 77.)
1980 KZ 440 LTD Model A

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Ignition Timing won't synch with contact breaker plate 07 Feb 2019 13:24 #798331

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I want to see some pics of your points and mounting plate @ F and T mark Position

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Ignition Timing won't synch with contact breaker plate 10 Feb 2019 14:03 #798447

  • newkzrider18
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Sorry for the late reply, it's been snowing...
Attached is a video of a continuity test.
The beeping stops when the points are no longer touching. In the video this happens when what I think is well before the 'F' timing mark.

EDIT:
Ok for some reason the forum won't let me upload the video even though I tried twice with supported file attachments (mov and wmv)
so I guess a picture will do.
The picture is the point where the beeping stops and the points begin to open.
1980 KZ 440 LTD Model A
Attachments:
  • Statictimi...2-10.wmv

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Last edit: by newkzrider18.

Ignition Timing won't synch with contact breaker plate 10 Feb 2019 14:41 #798450

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Not the "F" letter is the firing mark, the (red) score on the advancer body is "F" mark @ idle.




and the full advance Timing mark @ 3400 rpm




BTW, Video files max. 10mb.

MVI_1942_2...2-10.mov

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  • MVI_1942_2...2-10.mov

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Last edit: by Scirocco.

Ignition Timing won't synch with contact breaker plate 10 Feb 2019 19:08 #798463

  • Patton
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Is the advancer functioning correctly, clean and lubed and not rusty, and not stuck in the advanced position?

Good Fortune! :)
1973 Z1
KZ900 LTD

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Last edit: by Patton.

Ignition Timing won't synch with contact breaker plate 10 Feb 2019 19:19 #798464

  • SWest
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Points look worn out.
Steve
Z1b1000 1975 Z1b
Opinions expressed by me do not reflect those of the the staff or members
kzrider.com/forum/11-projects/598262-kz-...-will-it-live#672882
kzrider.com/forum/2-engine/597654-poser?start=240#704229

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Ignition Timing won't synch with contact breaker plate 10 Feb 2019 20:38 #798466

  • 650ed
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SWest wrote: Points look worn out.
Steve


True. They appear to be either worn out, damaged, and/or installed incorrectly. The contact points are not lined up properly, so even if they were to operate something is still wrong. Ed

1977 KZ650-C1 Original Owner - Stock (with additional invisible FIAMM horn)
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Ignition Timing won't synch with contact breaker plate 10 Feb 2019 20:45 #798468

  • SWest
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Spring might be crooked keeping them from lining up properly.
Steve
Z1b1000 1975 Z1b
Opinions expressed by me do not reflect those of the the staff or members
kzrider.com/forum/11-projects/598262-kz-...-will-it-live#672882
kzrider.com/forum/2-engine/597654-poser?start=240#704229

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Ignition Timing won't synch with contact breaker plate 11 Feb 2019 14:00 #798492

  • newkzrider18
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Thanks all! I am not the original owner of this bike so I'm doing a good shakedown, even just finished making that custom airbox for it in another post.
But back to this:

Scirocco -> right the timing mark is where it should be lining up, so on my bike it is really far behind in my opinion.

SWest -> where is this spring?

650ed -> the manual I believe doesn't go into detail on adjusting the points themselves, so (if the points were still good and not worn down) how would one get them to line up right? Adjusting that bending 'tab'?

All, I noticed they do not hit eachother flush which I knew wasn't good (you should see it from the top...they're angled! like this \| )
Also the manual states to buy a new contact breaker if the points look worn. Should I try cleaning it first? I couldn't tell that they looked worn down.

Thanks again.
1980 KZ 440 LTD Model A

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Ignition Timing won't synch with contact breaker plate 11 Feb 2019 14:49 #798493

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If they are worn offset the spring going from the screw where the wires fasten then to the points themselves could have been the cause. Are they worn that way or just offset? That could account for them opening at the wrong time.
Steve
Z1b1000 1975 Z1b
Opinions expressed by me do not reflect those of the the staff or members
kzrider.com/forum/11-projects/598262-kz-...-will-it-live#672882
kzrider.com/forum/2-engine/597654-poser?start=240#704229

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Ignition Timing won't synch with contact breaker plate 11 Feb 2019 16:19 #798500

  • newkzrider18
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Honestly, all the times I've looked at them, they've never looked damaged or dirty, they just look like they are mispositioned.
I wonder how that could have happened though as I doubt the PO took a look inside anything.
I'll try and see if I can find this spring.
1980 KZ 440 LTD Model A

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Ignition Timing won't synch with contact breaker plate 11 Feb 2019 17:18 #798508

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The spring is what makes the points close.
Steve
Z1b1000 1975 Z1b
Opinions expressed by me do not reflect those of the the staff or members
kzrider.com/forum/11-projects/598262-kz-...-will-it-live#672882
kzrider.com/forum/2-engine/597654-poser?start=240#704229

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Ignition Timing won't synch with contact breaker plate 12 Feb 2019 06:51 #798530

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Patton wrote: Is the advancer functioning correctly, clean and lubed and not rusty, and not stuck in the advanced position? . . . .


Does the advancer look anything like this?





Good Fortune! :)
1973 Z1
KZ900 LTD
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Last edit: by Patton.

Ignition Timing won't synch with contact breaker plate 12 Feb 2019 21:42 #798580

  • newkzrider18
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Sorry Patton for not answering the first time around, no, the timing advancer looks good and actuates when moved by hand
1980 KZ 440 LTD Model A

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