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'83 GPz 550 head gasket Issue 18 Jun 2017 16:48 #764716

  • MayerMatthewR
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Welp,

Admittedly it's been a long time since my last post! Lots of fun life-stuff since last update, baby on the way and what not :)

Anyway, I've actually made some progress this weekend!

One thing sharp eyes may notice is that I had the parts bike's tank/etc. repainted in original trim and had the fork brace (also from the parts bike) powder coated. Put everything on just to see how it looked prior to surgery.


Finally have it apart. Checked compression before tear down and she's above 150psi on all four.


Things look pretty good in here!


After pulling the head I was able to confirm that Daftrusty was correct; the #1 cylinder oval O-ring had given up the ghost.

So now I'll need to just get that darn base gasket cleaned up a little bit and wait for my valve spring compressor to come in tomorrow so I can replace the valve seals - any special tricks to that?

My only real concern so far are the cylinder walls. They are very smooth to the touch, no ridges or anything, but there seems to be some discoloration. Am considering getting a light honing done...anyone have any insights?




Thanks!

-Matt

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Last edit: by MayerMatthewR.

'83 GPz 550 head gasket Issue 19 Jun 2017 10:45 #764782

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Replacing the oil seals is fairly easy. But things to pay attention to...
There are steel seats that the valve springs sit on that can fall out once you have removed the valve seals. (They will only fall out if you turn the head upside down.) Make sure the seats are back in place BEFORE you put the new oil seals on. Other wise you will have to remove the new seal and that will usually will damage it.
Be careful prying the old valve seals off the valve guide. The old seals can be hard to remove and you can easily damage the valve guide if you go prying away at it with pliers and are not gentle.

Since you had pretty good compression before you took the engine apart, normally you could just get away with leaving the bores as is. But you have some weird crusty's and what almost looks like corrosion in the far cylinder.


I would definitly take a ball hone to that (and the other three cylinders) and make sure the dark areas disappear and there is no deep pitting.
A flat stone hone will only touch certain areas and leave other areas shiny since your cylinder bores are "broken in" and no longer perfectly cylindrical, that's why the ball hone is preferred in this instance.
But you can't go nuts and try to hone for hours trying to remove defects in the bores or your old piston rings may never seal properly and will have poor compression.
Let us know how it goes.
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'83 GPz 550 head gasket Issue 19 Jun 2017 11:12 #764787

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Thanks for the quick reply!

So I was just notified that my valve spring compressor should be sitting at my door when I get home. Based on your comments, it seems I should just do one valve seal at a time so that the seats will stay in place?

Is there any special trick to getting the seals off or do you just kind of wiggle them until they pop off? These will actually be the first valve seals I'm replacing - all the old Hondas I've rebuilt to date have not had them.

Regarding the bores - yes I think you are probably right. It was pretty late the other evening when I finished up and snapped those pictures, but I do remember seeing it and thinking it sure looked funny. I put my fingers in there and as far as I can recall it was all smooth, though it doesn't look that way.

I was thinking of buying a ball hone, but I think your suggestion has pushed it over the edge. I need to measure the bores to see what size hone i need.

So should I get new rings too or just a light hone?

Thanks again Daftrusty!

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'83 GPz 550 head gasket Issue 19 Jun 2017 14:35 #764801

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Through trial and error, I found I could use a miniature pair of pliers to reach in and grab the outside of the old valve seal and twist/tug it out and off the sealing lip of the valve guide. But if you use a super kung-fu grip on the pliers you can easily crush the seal and gouge the valve guide itself. Also try not to grab the seal by the hole that the valve goes in, as it is very very easy to accidentally damage the inside sliding surface of the valve guide. That is real real bad. ( I thankfully only did that once and it was on a junk head I was practicing on. )

I bought my ball hone for my 550 and one for my 750 from Amazon as they were the best price for a quality tool that I will rarely use.
As for the new rings.....I would hone the cylinders first and if all come out nice and clean, then I would reuse your old rings since you had good compression numbers. But if you find damage that cannot be honed out, then you will need a good used cylinder block and brand new rings to start fresh with.

Food for thought.
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Last edit: by Daftrusty. Reason: mis-spelling

'83 GPz 550 head gasket Issue 19 Jun 2017 15:47 #764806

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The right tool to pull out and push in the valve seals



Use this plastic tube to install the new valve seals, otherwise you can damage the seal lip ( #4 ) at the key grove of the valve stem
You can use a drinking straw with 7 mm ID as tube.

Michael

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Last edit: by Scirocco.

'83 GPz 550 head gasket Issue 19 Jun 2017 19:26 #764821

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Thank you both for the very helpful responses!

Scirrocco, I actually didn't see your post until after completing the deed tonight. I'm certain those tools would have made the job easier, but I have to say, Daftrusty's technique worked like a charm. Also, I *cannot believe* I waited so long to buy a valve spring compressor...holy crap, no more bruised thumbs. What a wonderful tool.

So I've got the valve seals changed out and put it back together with some assembly lube. One dumbass thing that I wish I'd have done before I put it back together was finish removing the remains of the gasket material on the valve cover seat. I don't know that this engine has been apart before, but those gaskets are *on* there. I'm either going to have a buy some abrasive wheels for the dremel tool, get some gasket remover, or both. They are like concrete - any tips fellas?

Also, I took some better photos of the barrels and the #1 piston. It does seem like there is some rust at the end of the barrel and some definite discoloration on the #1 & #2 bores, though they are smooth. It's almost like some moisture got in there at some point - that's the only thing I can think of.

#1 Barrel - No Flash


#1 Barrel - Flash


#3 & #4


Here's the #1 piston, the rear of the skirt has some obvious scoring/lines on it, but the front and the rest of the pistons look pretty good. What in the heck could cause this kind of selective scoring issue? If it matters at all, the #1 piston is the side with the oval o-ring that blew out and necessitated this tear down in the first place.



Upon this further inspection, I'm beginning to think that a professional honing and perhaps evening a new #1 piston & all new rings would be a good idea - thoughts?

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'83 GPz 550 head gasket Issue 20 Jun 2017 10:55 #764879

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Yeah...that cylinder bore looks bad. It appears that excessive moisture has caused the piston rings to rust to the cylinder bore. You can see the rusty outline of the oil scraper spring in the cylinder. It looks like in the processes of the rusted piston being unstuck, it cocked the piston in the bore and hence the scoring on one side. I would frankly just completely smooth out the rough spots with a scotch bright pad (or soda blast) and run it with new rings. Technically, once smoothed out, those "damaged" areas will never touch the cylinder wall again as long as everything is assembled according to specs.
I ran into exactly this on a 550 motor I bought from craigslist. When I had the cylinder bores honed out to the point all traces of pitting and corrosion was gone, the bores where then out of tolerance. (And I still had to pay them $$ for the time they wasted on honing it) I would have had to buy oversized pistons and pay more $$$ to have the bores machined to accept them. So I bought another cylinder block in the end.
It's a tough choice... pay a machinist to have it honed out and hope its within tolerance, or buy a ball hone and see if it will come out the easy way. If you end up buying a used cylinder block, you will need to hone it before you put new rings in it anyway.

I have had a terrible time with base gaskets that turned to stone as well. Nothing worked to soften them. Gasket remover, brake fluid, acetone, paint stripper...nothing worked. So I used a razor blade that to slowly scrape it all off. It took me days. The razor blades have a tendency to gouge the aluminum so I bent the blades in a slight bowed or U shape and scraped with the center. It never gouged after that and was way more effective in peeling into the just the gasket.
Never ever use a rotoloc or abrasive wheels or anything on a drill to remove the gaskets. It will also unevenly remove aluminum and your base gasket, head gasket or valve cover will never ever seal right again.

Lots to think about.
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'83 GPz 550 head gasket Issue 24 Jun 2017 12:10 #765267

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Daftrusty wrote: Yeah...that cylinder bore looks bad. It appears that excessive moisture has caused the piston rings to rust to the cylinder bore. You can see the rusty outline of the oil scraper spring in the cylinder. It looks like in the processes of the rusted piston being unstuck, it cocked the piston in the bore and hence the scoring on one side. I would frankly just completely smooth out the rough spots with a scotch bright pad (or soda blast) and run it with new rings. Technically, once smoothed out, those "damaged" areas will never touch the cylinder wall again as long as everything is assembled according to specs.
I ran into exactly this on a 550 motor I bought from craigslist. When I had the cylinder bores honed out to the point all traces of pitting and corrosion was gone, the bores where then out of tolerance. (And I still had to pay them $$ for the time they wasted on honing it) I would have had to buy oversized pistons and pay more $$$ to have the bores machined to accept them. So I bought another cylinder block in the end.
It's a tough choice... pay a machinist to have it honed out and hope its within tolerance, or buy a ball hone and see if it will come out the easy way. If you end up buying a used cylinder block, you will need to hone it before you put new rings in it anyway.

I have had a terrible time with base gaskets that turned to stone as well. Nothing worked to soften them. Gasket remover, brake fluid, acetone, paint stripper...nothing worked. So I used a razor blade that to slowly scrape it all off. It took me days. The razor blades have a tendency to gouge the aluminum so I bent the blades in a slight bowed or U shape and scraped with the center. It never gouged after that and was way more effective in peeling into the just the gasket.
Never ever use a rotoloc or abrasive wheels or anything on a drill to remove the gaskets. It will also unevenly remove aluminum and your base gasket, head gasket or valve cover will never ever seal right again.

Lots to think about.


Daftrusty,

Sorry for the delayed response, I really appreciate your feedback.

So I did what you suggested; I drove out to a buddy's friend this afternoon and used his ball hone. Unfortunately, the easy way didn't work for these jugs either. Even after a few passes with the ball hone there is one spot that has some pitting that I only think a boring and oversized pistons would fix. That said, I'd guess that a +1 oversized would probably do the trick as it's pretty smooth.

I'm intrigued by your idea to just throw some new rings in it...what are your thoughts about getting a new piston too? Or just run that same one? Wouldn't the rough spot cause issues with the seating of the new rings?

I guess if I go the other direction; where is the best place to find oversized pistons for the KZ550? Ebay seems to be heavy on the Wiseco Big Bore jobs, but I don't really want to big bore it. Nor am I real excited about putting a ton of $$ into it..but I don't like to do things wrong if I can find a decent solution.

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'83 GPz 550 head gasket Issue 25 Jun 2017 13:09 #765359

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That cylinder indeed does look bad. The only good news is that the worst rust area is in a spot that the rings will not touch. The piston travel does not reach the bottom 2ish inches of the bore. But the other areas of corrosion is pretty disconcerting. I would NOT put new rings in. It would be a total waste of money in that condition. The corrosion has actual eaten away low spots, so it won't damage the rings, but it will let combustion gasses by. Thus lowering compression, power and it will increase blow-by gasses and pressure into the crankcase which leads to blown seals.
Options....
1. Buy 1st oversize piston. They are no longer available from Kawasaki but a guy in Sweden has one with rings for $118. (not including the $50-$75 you will get charged to bore the cylinder out.) The most straight forward option, but you could buy an entire good used block and pistons for that. Maybe a used engine.
2. Good used cylinder block. Hone it and run new rings.
3. 615 kit. You can roll the dice on a cruzinimage kit for $150. Then you will also have to pay $150-200 to have the cylinders bored. Very expensive option.
4. Clean everything back up and put your old pistons and rings in and run it as is. It ran good before, so it in theory cant get be any worse.
But it needs to have a proper honing done. It needs to have the proper cross hatch surface, or the rings will chatter and burn oil like crazy.

Get other opinions from the folks here on the board and ask a local machinist, (also if you can't find a machinist willing to do it, then that limits your options.) and weigh your options.
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'83 GPz 550 head gasket Issue 25 Jun 2017 14:12 #765366

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perhaps an opportunity

Piston kits with +0,50 mm, +1,00 mm and +3,00 mm ( 612 ccm kit )

www.scheuerlein-motorentechnik.de/motorr...z550-modelle/gpz550/

www.scheuerlein-motorentechnik.de/motorr...550-aufbohrsatz.html
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'83 GPz 550 head gasket Issue 25 Jun 2017 16:31 #765373

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Daftrusty wrote: That cylinder indeed does look bad. The only good news is that the worst rust area is in a spot that the rings will not touch. The piston travel does not reach the bottom 2ish inches of the bore. But the other areas of corrosion is pretty disconcerting. I would NOT put new rings in. It would be a total waste of money in that condition. The corrosion has actual eaten away low spots, so it won't damage the rings, but it will let combustion gasses by. Thus lowering compression, power and it will increase blow-by gasses and pressure into the crankcase which leads to blown seals.
Options....
1. Buy 1st oversize piston. They are no longer available from Kawasaki but a guy in Sweden has one with rings for $118. (not including the $50-$75 you will get charged to bore the cylinder out.) The most straight forward option, but you could buy an entire good used block and pistons for that. Maybe a used engine.
2. Good used cylinder block. Hone it and run new rings.
3. 615 kit. You can roll the dice on a cruzinimage kit for $150. Then you will also have to pay $150-200 to have the cylinders bored. Very expensive option.
4. Clean everything back up and put your old pistons and rings in and run it as is. It ran good before, so it in theory cant get be any worse.
But it needs to have a proper honing done. It needs to have the proper cross hatch surface, or the rings will chatter and burn oil like crazy.

Get other opinions from the folks here on the board and ask a local machinist, (also if you can't find a machinist willing to do it, then that limits your options.) and weigh your options.


So I'm liking options #1 & #4 the best, of course. So supposing I get a 1st oversized piston for #1 and get it bored out - would that cause any balance issues or are the weight differences so minor that it doesn't matter?

Regarding Option #4, which to be frank, I'm thinking is my most likely course of action; I was able to find a guy on eBay who was selling a set (2) of the oil rings only. He evidently only needed the compression rings. They were $4 so I decided to grab them. My question to you though is; does it make any sense to change the old oil rings with these new ones or does it not really make any difference? Or hell, is it a bad idea?

Re: the piston; I'm looking for a good, used, standard sized piston to replace that scored #1...but man, folks on eBay sure are proud of their used pistons. Well, that or they want a ton for shipping, which amounts to the same. I'm thinking I'll just plunk down for a NOS standard sized piston...I mean I can't imagine running a piston with the way that one looks is a good idea? Or am I over thinking it?

Lastly, you mention that it needs a good honing - granted I haven't wiped the bores since it my friend and I used a ball hone on them, but are you saying that it needs additional honing? Or wipe, oil, clean'er up and put her back together?

Scirocco wrote: perhaps an opportunity

Piston kits with +0,50 mm, +1,00 mm and +3,00 mm ( 612 ccm kit )

www.scheuerlein-motorentechnik.de/motorr...z550-modelle/gpz550/

www.scheuerlein-motorentechnik.de/motorr...550-aufbohrsatz.html


ergh, you and I have very different ideas of opportunities! haha!

No, but honestly, I sincerely appreciate the effort and thank you for linking those options.

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'83 GPz 550 head gasket Issue 25 Jun 2017 17:00 #765374

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No eBay APP ID and/or Cert ID defined in Kunena configurationNo eBay APP ID and/or Cert ID defined in Kunena configurationWould this work? I was thinking you could make an offer shipped. I've done it. Maybe take the bad sleeve out and put a good used one in and you would have your choice in pistons.
Steve


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